I think VO does a poor job with spreadsheets, containing none of the semantic navigation features in JAWS or WE. It generally does a hardly adequate job in all tabular constructs and struggles with complex web 2.0 apps like googledocs. On Dec 1, 2009, at 5:47 PM, James & Nash wrote:
> Hi, > > I'm not looking to upset anyone, but can I ask why do you think that VO and > NVDA are not quite up to the standard set by JFW and We? > > Mac OS X 10.6 set the VO bar extremely high. This release has made VO a fully > functional and viable solution for Blind computer users who wish to use a > Mac. I am not saying that improvements do not need to be made, but that goes > for all of the Screen Readers on all of the platforms and the operating > systems generally. I admit that prior to this, whilst VO was very good, it > did not quite hit the mark, and Apple's approach to accessibility seemed to > be stagnating - and so I migrated back to Windows. This was a personal choice > though. > > Keep in mind, that; NVDA, Orca and VO work in a very different way to JFW and > Window Eyes. All three use object navigation - a concept which allows us as > blind users to gain an idea of what our sighted co-workers etc are seeing on > the screen. This is a radical concept, and one which Apple has been slammed > for pursuing. It is also worth remembering that both Orca and Voice Over are > being used on operating systems which are fundamentally and vastly different > to Windows, both in concept and design. > > I do not mean this to be a patronising or condescending E-Mail, I am just > curious as to why you think VO is not yet up to the standard of the > commercial offerings of the Windows world? Please bare in mind, that these > are just my opinions. If you'd like to discuss this further, please contact > me of list as i think we may be going off topic here. > > TC > > James > > > On 1 Dec 2009, at 22:10, John G. Heim wrote: > >> Several years ago, Microsoft began working on improvements to narrator that >> would make it a realistically usable screen reader. But the National >> Federation of the Blind asked them to stop. The reasoning was that if >> Microsoft improved narrator, it might drive Freedom Scientific and GW Micro >> out of business. They thought that narrator would never reach the quality of >> Jaws and window-eyes yet it might still be good enough to drive those >> products out of the market. >> >> Obviously, that decision was somewhat controversial at the time. I argued >> that it made no sense to think that narrator could be at once too crummy to >> be used and at the same time good enough to drive jFS and GWM out of >> business. I didn't anticipate the development of the other free screen >> readers, voiceover, nvda, and orca. But certainly, that's another point >> against the NFB position. >> >> On the other hand, I don't think I'd like to switch to voiceover or nvda >> full-time. They are not quite up to the standard set by jaws yet. >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Lynn Schneider" <canepri...@gmail.com> >> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:54 PM >> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >> >> >> I purchased my first Apple computer about three months ago. I will never >> forget the feeling of complete surprise and joy at being able to just turn >> the iMac on and get it talking within minutes. Microsoft is not to blame >> for not having default Windows access out of the box, blind people are to >> blame. As Mark said, thinking outside the box can get you into hot water. >> A few years ago on a blindness-related list, I made the cataclysmic mistake >> of expressing my wish that some day, windows would be accessible out of the >> box. You would not believe the hate mail I received from tons of blind >> people basically saying that I wanted a free lunch, I was ungrateful for all >> the hard work and research of the screen reader companies, etc. etc. >> Honestly, it was totally shocking to me that I would get such ire for simply >> suggesting that we ought to have access to something our sighted peers take >> for granted without having to pay thousands of dollars extra. But, being on >> this list and seeing all the other blind switchers out there, I feel at >> least a tiny bit vindicated, as blind people are starting to see the >> benefits of universal access. I really think it is the young blind people >> who are going to demand universal access, at least I hope so. They are the >> ones who are going to benefit most from being able to buy an iPhone or iPod >> Touch like their peers and just start using the thing, and they are >> hopefully going to demand more of that. With chips being so cheap now, >> there is absolutely no reason why universal access cannot be built right >> into things. The best thing we can all do is to spread the word far and >> wide about what Apple has been able to accomplish with their products and >> make them an example of what can be. >> >> On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:27 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >> >>> I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>> hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>> universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>> Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>> technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>> brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>> mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>> sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >>> forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>> economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>> dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >>> it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >>> is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>> government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >>> I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >>> to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>> majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>> boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >>> the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>> kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>> Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >>> probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>> us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>> increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >>> Anchorage, Alaska. >>> >>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>> >>> I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>> have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >>> I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>> secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>> FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>> market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>> that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >>> ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>> ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >>> of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >>> by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>> deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >>> anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >>> a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >>> robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>> are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>> needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>> were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>> macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >>> might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>> stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>> correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>> >>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>> >>>> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>>> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >>>> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >>>> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>>> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and to >>>> a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>>> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >>>> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >>>> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>>> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>>> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>>> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>>> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>>> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >>>> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >>>> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>> >>>> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >>>> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>>> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >>>> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >>>> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >>>> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy >>>> and asking them if JFW works. We probably make up less than 10% of >>>> the population so it isn't going to happen. It would still be >>>> expensive, and that's why I needed the agency to buy it for me. Again >>>> don't get me wrong, in a perfect world that might happen, but we all >>>> know the world is far from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody >>>> necessarily, and I don't consider myself dependent because I need >>>> assistance from them. I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go >>>> where I need to go etc. A good organization helps people become >>>> independent. I agree that whenever possible, we should do for >>>> ourselves and not be too dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>>> >>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>> >>>>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>>> being >>>>> one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other things >>>>> and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, and the >>>>> disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different subject line >>>>> from what was originally intended, and I apologize for that, but I >>>>> will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in favor of >>>>> universal design so that blind people can walk into any store and >>>>> purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we not be >>>>> forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our stuff. I >>>>> guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the reasons I stated >>>>> above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mark: >>>>> >>>>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>>>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>>>> here >>>>> in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was hired >>>>> for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I could >>>>> get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had graphics >>>>> for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of dollars >>>>> that >>>>> has costed. He is working as we speak since the company I work for >>>>> has changed software and everything we had done in the past regarding >>>>> the original software is now null and void. I could have not >>>>> afforded >>>>> a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. I can say with certainty >>>>> that there are few if any companies that would provide any of these >>>>> services. Unfortunately many government funded agencies, including >>>>> the Oregon Commission for the blind do know little about Mac >>>>> accessibility as they have contracts with certain vendors, and, face >>>>> it,whether we like it or not, a majority of companies still use >>>>> Windows based software. My husband and I both decided on our own to >>>>> try the Mac, and though I've had some problems, I'm glad I did. I've >>>>> learned it without an instructor. We nearly lost our Commission last >>>>> summer so when I hear people talking about how we shouldn't have >>>>> government agencies such as this, I have to disagree though they do >>>>> have their problems. Yes, some people do rely on others to much, but >>>>> not all of us do. Like you, I grew up in the public school system in >>>>> a rural area. I was born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >>>>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >>>>>> as >>>>>> an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from state >>>>>> agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>>>>> minimal >>>>>> if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience with any >>>>>> agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, when the >>>>>> Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course and I >>>>>> needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of their >>>>>> dorm, >>>>>> making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab flatly refused to >>>>>> support me and my music career in any way, and pressured me to go to >>>>>> the Carroll Center in the first place, then pressured me to get >>>>>> therapy and reform my ways when they made me homeless. I only >>>>>> started >>>>>> cautiously learning how to deal with the agencies in 2007, when it >>>>>> became clear that my failing hearing was going to force me out of >>>>>> the >>>>>> transcription career I'd had for 13+ years. I learned Jaws and >>>>>> Windows essentially by myself, as I've always been good with tech. >>>>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>>>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>>>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>>>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>>>> hopefully >>>>>> will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the abolition >>>>>> of >>>>>> such systems. They do not foster independence of thinking, and tend >>>>>> to punish outside-the-box people, in my experience. I do realize >>>>>> that >>>>>> people blinded later in life may not adapt as fully as those born >>>>>> blind; I'm learning that as I lose my hearing, so I have the >>>>>> privilege >>>>>> of seeing both sides of the coin, but think about what that >>>>>> implies-- >>>>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>>>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>>>>> high- >>>>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>>>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>>>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>>>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>>>>> last >>>>>> year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, in the >>>>>> interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility teacher >>>>>> quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the immediate >>>>>> rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon what I and my >>>>>> dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's even more so; >>>>>> now >>>>>> that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel the loss. :) I >>>>>> don't >>>>>> see how the agencies really have done me any good, other than in the >>>>>> purely material realm, and if I weren't as articulate as I am about >>>>>> stating my needs, and as forceful as I am about what I need, which >>>>>> most people are not, even that gain might be minimal, and even now >>>>>> the >>>>>> damage is significant. So, that's where my beef with the system(s) >>>>>> comes in; sorry if that makes it a personal grudge, but there you >>>>>> are >>>>>> then. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>>>> >>>>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >>>>>> My home page: >>>>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>> . >>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>> . >>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>> . >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "MacVisionaries" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >>> >>> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "MacVisionaries" group. >> To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. >> >> > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "MacVisionaries" group. > To post to this group, send email to macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "MacVisionaries" group. 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