Actually Chris it is also necessary to point out that from all I have read, Excel and Numbers are both spreadsheet programs, but apparently Apple has a pretty different approach and mindset where spreadsheets are concerned. I think that does have something to do with the issue as well. I'm also hoping they will address this as well because Numbers really could be a useful program. On Dec 2, 2009, at 2:47 PM, Chris Hofstader wrote:
> Tables is quite usable in relatively simple situations but nothing like the > powerhouse that JAWS is in Excel. VO provides virtually no efficiency > augmentations so a user needs to poke around looking for cells with data and > then figure out what they mean as there is no facility for announcing row or > column headers in a spreadsheet. If there is more than one table on a sheet, > a VO user has no way of knowing (without memorization) which data set they > are reading and, perhaps, wanting to modify. VO in all spreadsheets is > roughly the equal of what JAWS and WE were doing in Excel in 1998 and they've > both improved a real lot since. > > As I said, I find most things much more comfortable on a Macintosh with VO > but spreadsheets are definitely not one of them. > > cdh > On Dec 2, 2009, at 2:24 PM, carlene knight wrote: > >> I have no personal experience with the following , but somebody on another >> list I belong to like a program call Tables for this purpose. Currently I >> don't work with tables but thought this might be of interest. I may be way >> off the mark. >> >> >> >> >> On Dec 2, 2009, at 8:12 AM, Chris Hofstader wrote: >> >>> If you don't like JAWS in spreadsheets then you will hate Macintosh in >>> similar programs. >>> >>> JAWS provides a ton of semantically interesting ways to navigate in Excel. >>> You can get lists of cells with data, set row and column headings and have >>> them follow you to files with similar titles, have multiple "regions" on a >>> sheet with multiple tables, read the data in charts and graphs, do all >>> sorts of interesting things on a braille line to optimize use of that >>> expensive real estate, etc. Just hit JAWSKEY+V to bring up the verbosity >>> dialogue or pop up JAWS hot key help for Excel and you'll find dozens of >>> features unavailable in any other screen reader although Window-Eyes is >>> catching up in spite of FS hitting them with a patent suit regarding >>> augmented information in a spreadsheet. >>> >>> I didn't know about these buttons in cells but I'd bet if you can access >>> them through VB script then you can get at them with a slight change to the >>> JAWS scripts. If you look into the VB object model for Excel and find this >>> item, send it to Eric Damery at FS and he'll probably get it into the Excel >>> scripts very quickly. >>> >>> The web 2.0 stuff, if it follows the Aria guidelines (you can find it at >>> www.w3c.org/wai) actually work quite good with JAWS but far less well with >>> all other screen readers. Because there are official guidelines, it >>> shouldn't be too hard for the other screen access tools to catch up but, as >>> is often the case, FS got IBM to pay them big time consulting dollars to >>> add Aria support to JAWS so they could deploy some stuff and have an >>> accessibility solution ripe and ready. >>> >>> Overall, I find the Macintosh to provide a really superior experience but >>> it has its limitations. One could probably add features very similar to >>> the cool stuff JAWS does in excel to VO plus OpenOffice using any number of >>> interesting techniques but it would take a pretty solid screen reader >>> hacker with an understanding of the guts of both VO and OO to pull it off >>> and, sadly, I don't think there are too many people really diving into the >>> hardcore technical side of Macintosh accessibility who do not work for >>> Apple. >>> >>> cdh >>> >>> On Dec 2, 2009, at 9:52 AM, John W. Carty wrote: >>> >>>> Could you please discuss spreadsheet limits using vo in more detail. I'm >>>> struggling to make the move to a mac and I use a lot of spreadsheets. >>>> >>>> I work in an environment that uses a lot of spreadsheets and I've always >>>> been disappointed with jaws support for excel. In a professional >>>> environment I encounter spreadsheets almost daily that uses vba buttons >>>> embedded in cells that jaws cannot see. this has been a problem forever >>>> and fs has never done anything to solve this issue thru out office not >>>> just excel. >>>> >>>> I believe web 2.0 is going to reek havoc for screen reader users for many >>>> years regardless of the screen reader. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Chris Hofstader [mailto:c...@hofstader.com] >>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 02, 2009 8:22 AM >>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com >>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>>> >>>> I think VO does a poor job with spreadsheets, containing none of the >>>> semantic navigation features in JAWS or WE. It generally does a hardly >>>> adequate job in all tabular constructs and struggles with complex web 2.0 >>>> apps like googledocs. >>>> On Dec 1, 2009, at 5:47 PM, James & Nash wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi, >>>>> >>>>> I'm not looking to upset anyone, but can I ask why do you think that VO >>>>> and NVDA are not quite up to the standard set by JFW and We? >>>>> >>>>> Mac OS X 10.6 set the VO bar extremely high. This release has made VO a >>>>> fully functional and viable solution for Blind computer users who wish to >>>>> use a Mac. I am not saying that improvements do not need to be made, but >>>>> that goes for all of the Screen Readers on all of the platforms and the >>>>> operating systems generally. I admit that prior to this, whilst VO was >>>>> very good, it did not quite hit the mark, and Apple's approach to >>>>> accessibility seemed to be stagnating - and so I migrated back to >>>>> Windows. This was a personal choice though. >>>>> >>>>> Keep in mind, that; NVDA, Orca and VO work in a very different way to JFW >>>>> and Window Eyes. All three use object navigation - a concept which allows >>>>> us as blind users to gain an idea of what our sighted co-workers etc are >>>>> seeing on the screen. This is a radical concept, and one which Apple has >>>>> been slammed for pursuing. It is also worth remembering that both Orca >>>>> and Voice Over are being used on operating systems which are >>>>> fundamentally and vastly different to Windows, both in concept and design. >>>>> >>>>> I do not mean this to be a patronising or condescending E-Mail, I am just >>>>> curious as to why you think VO is not yet up to the standard of the >>>>> commercial offerings of the Windows world? Please bare in mind, that >>>>> these are just my opinions. If you'd like to discuss this further, please >>>>> contact me of list as i think we may be going off topic here. >>>>> >>>>> TC >>>>> >>>>> James >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 1 Dec 2009, at 22:10, John G. Heim wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Several years ago, Microsoft began working on improvements to narrator >>>>>> that >>>>>> would make it a realistically usable screen reader. But the National >>>>>> Federation of the Blind asked them to stop. The reasoning was that if >>>>>> Microsoft improved narrator, it might drive Freedom Scientific and GW >>>>>> Micro >>>>>> out of business. They thought that narrator would never reach the >>>>>> quality of >>>>>> Jaws and window-eyes yet it might still be good enough to drive those >>>>>> products out of the market. >>>>>> >>>>>> Obviously, that decision was somewhat controversial at the time. I argued >>>>>> that it made no sense to think that narrator could be at once too crummy >>>>>> to >>>>>> be used and at the same time good enough to drive jFS and GWM out of >>>>>> business. I didn't anticipate the development of the other free screen >>>>>> readers, voiceover, nvda, and orca. But certainly, that's another point >>>>>> against the NFB position. >>>>>> >>>>>> On the other hand, I don't think I'd like to switch to voiceover or nvda >>>>>> full-time. They are not quite up to the standard set by jaws yet. >>>>>> >>>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>>> From: "Lynn Schneider" <canepri...@gmail.com> >>>>>> To: <macvisionaries@googlegroups.com> >>>>>> Sent: Monday, November 30, 2009 10:54 PM >>>>>> Subject: Re: Economics and the Mac >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I purchased my first Apple computer about three months ago. I will never >>>>>> forget the feeling of complete surprise and joy at being able to just >>>>>> turn >>>>>> the iMac on and get it talking within minutes. Microsoft is not to blame >>>>>> for not having default Windows access out of the box, blind people are to >>>>>> blame. As Mark said, thinking outside the box can get you into hot >>>>>> water. >>>>>> A few years ago on a blindness-related list, I made the cataclysmic >>>>>> mistake >>>>>> of expressing my wish that some day, windows would be accessible out of >>>>>> the >>>>>> box. You would not believe the hate mail I received from tons of blind >>>>>> people basically saying that I wanted a free lunch, I was ungrateful for >>>>>> all >>>>>> the hard work and research of the screen reader companies, etc. etc. >>>>>> Honestly, it was totally shocking to me that I would get such ire for >>>>>> simply >>>>>> suggesting that we ought to have access to something our sighted peers >>>>>> take >>>>>> for granted without having to pay thousands of dollars extra. But, >>>>>> being on >>>>>> this list and seeing all the other blind switchers out there, I feel at >>>>>> least a tiny bit vindicated, as blind people are starting to see the >>>>>> benefits of universal access. I really think it is the young blind >>>>>> people >>>>>> who are going to demand universal access, at least I hope so. They are >>>>>> the >>>>>> ones who are going to benefit most from being able to buy an iPhone or >>>>>> iPod >>>>>> Touch like their peers and just start using the thing, and they are >>>>>> hopefully going to demand more of that. With chips being so cheap now, >>>>>> there is absolutely no reason why universal access cannot be built right >>>>>> into things. The best thing we can all do is to spread the word far and >>>>>> wide about what Apple has been able to accomplish with their products and >>>>>> make them an example of what can be. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 9:27 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have changed the subject line to more reflect on the discussion at >>>>>>> hand. If Apple can set aside resources to make their Mac computers >>>>>>> universally marketed across the board, there is no reason why >>>>>>> Microsoftshouldn't, (and they definitely have the resources and the >>>>>>> technical expertise throughout the company) to do so. And if it >>>>>>> brings the prices down, and Microsoft does, for example, develop a >>>>>>> mechanism by which Windows can be installed out of the box without >>>>>>> sighted assistance, companies such as Freedom Scientific would then be >>>>>>> forced to either go with the trend; otherwise, they would lose their >>>>>>> economic dolars; after all, isn't that what competition for tax >>>>>>> dollars and marketshare is all about? In my humble opinion, for what >>>>>>> it's worth, the only reason Freedom Scientific survives in the market >>>>>>> is because they have contracted with some state agencies and >>>>>>> government entities, and we bare the brunt of the expense ineirectly. >>>>>>> I paid less for my car than I have for braille displays costing $8000 >>>>>>> to $12,000 dollars at a time. In Alaska, for example, the biggest >>>>>>> majority of vision loss occurs in the elderly population and baby >>>>>>> boomers who are about to reach retirement age. We have no school for >>>>>>> the blind in Alaska; therefore, if parents want to send their blind >>>>>>> kids off to a residential school, they would have to send them >>>>>>> Stateside, which costs the state thousands of dollars which they could >>>>>>> probably find other revenues to use elsewhere.There are a handful of >>>>>>> us who are blind and visually-impaired Macusers, but that numberis >>>>>>> increasing, as the word about VoiceOver gets out. Richie Gardenhire, >>>>>>> Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:21 PM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I know that the companies take huge advantage of the fact that they >>>>>>> have a guaranteed nitch and can charge whatever they want. That's why >>>>>>> I will not upgrade my JAWS SMA. For one thing I don't need it and >>>>>>> secondly, I don't want to pay that kind of price for an upgrade, but >>>>>>> FS knows that they can get away with it because of a guaranteed >>>>>>> market. I'm not saying things could not change, but simply stating >>>>>>> that you can't get JAWS or a Braille display from a home electronics >>>>>>> ore software store, and I wouldn't expect to happen any time soon if >>>>>>> ever. In their eyes, why should They bother as they won't sell enough >>>>>>> of them to make it worth their while. There is a cell phone put out >>>>>>> by Capital Accessibility in Europe. I've seen one and it's no big >>>>>>> deal. The speech is great, but there is no camera, digital screen, or >>>>>>> anything that might ad a bit of a price to the phone. It's built like >>>>>>> a brick, but it is over $500 and though the speech is clear, it's very >>>>>>> robotic. Tell me that's not ridiculous? I don't know that agencies >>>>>>> are responsible for this one, but the phone is so tailored to our >>>>>>> needs that somebody will buy it. Not me. Granted, if more people >>>>>>> were learning braille and speech software as they were dealing with >>>>>>> macular degeneration, and there was a big enough demand for it, things >>>>>>> might come down a bit. That's great about the scanner. I'd better >>>>>>> stop typing now as I am misspelling more things than I am typing >>>>>>> correctly and am about to throw this keyboard, though it's not at fault. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 1:46 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> With all due respect, that argument has been used time and time >>>>>>>> again. To that, I say this: the best example of a product that has >>>>>>>> gone down in price because of the acceptance of it by the sighted >>>>>>>> community, is the optical scanner, which was originally intended for >>>>>>>> use by the blind for scanning newspapers, magazines, and othr >>>>>>>> documents in their computers or reading machines. Back then, you had >>>>>>>> to pay thousands of dolars for the machine, and ys, state agencies >>>>>>>> bought it for us, if we were lucky. Now, one can buy a scanner and to >>>>>>>> a certain extent, software for scanning pictures, text, and other >>>>>>>> document forms into one's PC, at a fraction of the cost it was in the >>>>>>>> 1970's. The point here is that it found a marketable niche among the >>>>>>>> sighted community, and once they were mass-produced, prices started >>>>>>>> coming down and people could afford said scanners. While braille >>>>>>>> displays are another issue, there are companies who are working to >>>>>>>> make even displays more affordable and accepting to the universal >>>>>>>> design market. In the 1980's, Apple tried an experiment, using an >>>>>>>> ordinary, dot matrix printer, to produce braille. It wasn't the best >>>>>>>> quality braille, but it was an experiment that, had it been popular, >>>>>>>> might have flown. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 11:50 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Unfortunately you have to be realistic though. I agree with you in a >>>>>>>> sense, but going into a store and buying JAWS or Window Eyes off of >>>>>>>> the shelf? That would be nice? that's one reason I like the Mac and >>>>>>>> accessories. The people in the Mac and Apple stores will likely not >>>>>>>> be trained for extensive use with Vo, but they should be able to make >>>>>>>> sure it works. Try going into a Best Buy >>>>>>>> and asking them if JFW works. We probably make up less than 10% of >>>>>>>> the population so it isn't going to happen. It would still be >>>>>>>> expensive, and that's why I needed the agency to buy it for me. Again >>>>>>>> don't get me wrong, in a perfect world that might happen, but we all >>>>>>>> know the world is far from perfect. I'm not trying to defend anybody >>>>>>>> necessarily, and I don't consider myself dependent because I need >>>>>>>> assistance from them. I got my own jobs, take care of myself, go >>>>>>>> where I need to go etc. A good organization helps people become >>>>>>>> independent. I agree that whenever possible, we should do for >>>>>>>> ourselves and not be too dependent on anybody, agencies included. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 12:23 PM, Richie Gardenhire wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> And for this reason, I feel that many state agencies, (Alaska's, >>>>>>>>> being >>>>>>>>> one of them)will be cutting back services, in favor of other things >>>>>>>>> and as Mark so eloquently pointed out, the elderly, the poor, and the >>>>>>>>> disabled, will be hurt first. I know thisis a different subject line >>>>>>>>> from what was originally intended, and I apologize for that, but I >>>>>>>>> will say one more thing on this, and that is that I'm in favor of >>>>>>>>> universal design so that blind people can walk into any store and >>>>>>>>> purchase off-the-shelf software and get it working and we not be >>>>>>>>> forced to be co-dependent on state agencies to purchase our stuff. I >>>>>>>>> guess, in a way, I'm against state agencies for the reasons I stated >>>>>>>>> above. Richie Gardenhire, Anchorage, Alaska. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:32 AM, carlene knight wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hi Mark: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I certainly don't hold a grudge as everybody is entitled to their >>>>>>>>> opinion. However, if it weren't for the Commission for the blind >>>>>>>>> here >>>>>>>>> in Oregon, there is no way that I could perform the job I was hired >>>>>>>>> for. I had to have a programmer write JAWS scripts so that I could >>>>>>>>> get to the buttons, read the drop down boxes that just had graphics >>>>>>>>> for names, etc. I couldn't have afforded the thousands of dollars >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> has costed. He is working as we speak since the company I work for >>>>>>>>> has changed software and everything we had done in the past regarding >>>>>>>>> the original software is now null and void. I could have not >>>>>>>>> afforded >>>>>>>>> a Braille display at about 12,000 dollars. I can say with certainty >>>>>>>>> that there are few if any companies that would provide any of these >>>>>>>>> services. Unfortunately many government funded agencies, including >>>>>>>>> the Oregon Commission for the blind do know little about Mac >>>>>>>>> accessibility as they have contracts with certain vendors, and, face >>>>>>>>> it,whether we like it or not, a majority of companies still use >>>>>>>>> Windows based software. My husband and I both decided on our own to >>>>>>>>> try the Mac, and though I've had some problems, I'm glad I did. I've >>>>>>>>> learned it without an instructor. We nearly lost our Commission last >>>>>>>>> summer so when I hear people talking about how we shouldn't have >>>>>>>>> government agencies such as this, I have to disagree though they do >>>>>>>>> have their problems. Yes, some people do rely on others to much, but >>>>>>>>> not all of us do. Like you, I grew up in the public school system in >>>>>>>>> a rural area. I was born blind also. I'll get off my soap box now. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Nov 30, 2009, at 10:51 AM, Mark BurningHawk Baxter wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You, and I to a lesser extent, and others are the exception. I was >>>>>>>>>> born blind, didn't go to any institutions for the blind, was raised >>>>>>>>>> as >>>>>>>>>> an only child, mostly in rural Vermont with minimal help from state >>>>>>>>>> agencies. Graduated from Dartmouth when I was 20, again with >>>>>>>>>> minimal >>>>>>>>>> if any help from agencies--didn't have my first experience with any >>>>>>>>>> agencies or institutions for the blind until I was 24, when the >>>>>>>>>> Carroll Center was offering a medical transcription course and I >>>>>>>>>> needed another, safer place to be. They kicked me out of their >>>>>>>>>> dorm, >>>>>>>>>> making me homeless, after six weeks there. Rehab flatly refused to >>>>>>>>>> support me and my music career in any way, and pressured me to go to >>>>>>>>>> the Carroll Center in the first place, then pressured me to get >>>>>>>>>> therapy and reform my ways when they made me homeless. I only >>>>>>>>>> started >>>>>>>>>> cautiously learning how to deal with the agencies in 2007, when it >>>>>>>>>> became clear that my failing hearing was going to force me out of >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> transcription career I'd had for 13+ years. I learned Jaws and >>>>>>>>>> Windows essentially by myself, as I've always been good with tech. >>>>>>>>>> Even now, while I may have learned a little about how to get along >>>>>>>>>> with the agencies and get what I need, it's a very uneasy truce at >>>>>>>>>> best./ I hope to be starting a job at another institution for the >>>>>>>>>> blind soon, but this time as a trainer, not a student, which >>>>>>>>>> hopefully >>>>>>>>>> will turn out better. You can see why I advocate for the abolition >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> such systems. They do not foster independence of thinking, and tend >>>>>>>>>> to punish outside-the-box people, in my experience. I do realize >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> people blinded later in life may not adapt as fully as those born >>>>>>>>>> blind; I'm learning that as I lose my hearing, so I have the >>>>>>>>>> privilege >>>>>>>>>> of seeing both sides of the coin, but think about what that >>>>>>>>>> implies-- >>>>>>>>>> that the pressure on those whose world has already been blasted by >>>>>>>>>> losing their sight will essentially become putty in the hands of >>>>>>>>>> high- >>>>>>>>>> pressure agencies who are set in their ways. The system seems to >>>>>>>>>> punish at both ends--if you're too independent, you're pressured to >>>>>>>>>> conform; if you're new to blindness, you're taught not to think for >>>>>>>>>> yourself. Hell, I didn't even do mobility orienting stuff until >>>>>>>>>> last >>>>>>>>>> year, when Rehab here in CA suggested I ry it, and I decided, in the >>>>>>>>>> interests of keeping the peace, what the heck; my mobility teacher >>>>>>>>>> quickly realized that there was very little, beyond the immediate >>>>>>>>>> rehearsing of directions, that she could improve upon what I and my >>>>>>>>>> dog were already going. Since I got Trekker, that's even more so; >>>>>>>>>> now >>>>>>>>>> that Trekker is temporarily broken, I truly feel the loss. :) I >>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> see how the agencies really have done me any good, other than in the >>>>>>>>>> purely material realm, and if I weren't as articulate as I am about >>>>>>>>>> stating my needs, and as forceful as I am about what I need, which >>>>>>>>>> most people are not, even that gain might be minimal, and even now >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> damage is significant. So, that's where my beef with the system(s) >>>>>>>>>> comes in; sorry if that makes it a personal grudge, but there you >>>>>>>>>> are >>>>>>>>>> then. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Mark BurningHawk Baxter >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Skype and Twitter: BurningHawk1969 >>>>>>>>>> MSN: burninghawk1...@hotmail.com >>>>>>>>>> My home page: >>>>>>>>>> http://MarkBurningHawk.net/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group. >>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> macvisionar...@googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>>>>>>>> macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>>>>>>>> http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries?hl=en >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the 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