First of all, I thank you. I appreciate your crystal clear answers to my questions.
I also appreciate your own excellent questions. Yes, I agree that there are moral and legal limits to how every nation conducts war. And yes, even though *both* Israel and Hamas (via UNRWA) receive US funding, I'd argue that anyone would have the right to discuss it even if there was no US funding of either side. I simply personally prefer that it be in a separate forum from the rest of LT, but that's a different thread! Yes, there is a war in Gaza. Hamas' war goals, which come from its charter, are to eliminate Israel and all Jews. Hamas has publicly stated their desire to repeat October 7th over and over again. Israel's war goals are: (1) dismantle Hamas's military and governmental capabilities, and (2) secure the release of the hostages. I believe Israel's war aims to be legitimate. I also believe that there is no *intentional* effort to kill Gazan civilians, but that this effort is greatly complicated by Hamas' use of civilian facilities, such as hospitals and schools, as military facilities (which reclassifies them as valid military targets under international law). You may also be interested in the Henry Jackson Society report <https://5a55e4ca.streaklinks.com/CQwE0wAPT2OeJVbPQANrhxLX/https%3A%2F%2Fhenryjacksonsociety.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2024%2F12%2FHJS-Questionable-Counting->, which did incredible work analyzing Hamas' own published fatality data. You probably already knew that Hamas does not differentiate when reporting civilian and combatant deaths. The HJS report, however, went much deeper and is painstakingly detailed: - Many male deaths in Gaza were falsified as female deaths, and adult deaths were falsified as child deaths, potentially to exaggerate the perceived impact of the war on Gazan civilians. - A large number of cancer fatalities were falsified as war casualties. - There are substantial statistical anomalies in the Hamas-reported casualty data. For example, on some days, the number of reported child fatalities was larger than the total number of reported fatalities. Also, on days where heavy battles took place, the number of fighting-age male fatalities is much lower than on days where there was relatively light fighting, which doesn't fit casualty data from other wars, nor with common sense. This also isn't the first time that Hamas has misstated its fatality numbers. During Operation Cast Lead in 2008, Hamas initially reported that only 48 of 1,200 Gazan casualties were combatants. A year later, Hamas admitted publicly that about 600-700 of the casualties were combatants. It's possible that Hamas will ultimately restate its casualties from this war as well. Here's hoping that Hamas chooses to surrender and release the hostages, so that the suffering for both Gazans and Israelis may cease. ᐧ On Fri, Jan 3, 2025 at 8:24 AM Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Jonathan - > I wasn't trying to censor you; the LT moderators decide when to cut off a > one-on-one debate, not me. Rather, I was just letting you know if you > expect to be able to have a fully-fleshed out discussion on LT, I think you > will be disappointed, due to current moderation rules. > > But since you asked me directly, I'll do you the courtesy of responding > here to the questions you posed: In my opinion, (1) yes, the Jewish > people deserve the same rights as other people; (2) yes, the Jewish people > should have the right of self-determination and the right to seek political > power, and (3) yes, the Jewish state have the right to advance its own > geopolitical interests, to defend its citizens, and to deter those who wish > its citizens harm. > > However, the rights at #2 and #3 aren't unlimited, either for any > social/ethnic group or for any nation-state. For example, there are lots of > things that the leaders of the U.S. government could do in the belief that > those things would advance America's geopolitical interests, defend its > citizens, and/or deter those who wish its citizens harm -- things that > however would be violations of international law and widely-held moral > norms. (E.g., nuclear first strike, political assassinations, torture, > etc.; and yes, I know the U.S. already has been guilty of some of these and > more.) Similarly, Israel's right to defend itself doesn't mean there should > be no limits on how it conducts its war in Gaza with regard to > collateral(?) harm to civilians, for example. > > So I'd pose two counter-questions to you: Do you agree that (1) there > should be limits (for example) on how Israel conducts its war in Gaza > with regard to harm to civilians and that (2) that is a valid topic for > discussion by us U.S. citizens, who are helping fund that activity? > > If you would like to continue this discussion off of LT, I'd be glad to. > > - Paul > > > On Thu, Jan 2, 2025 at 8:57 AM Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> No, sir. Lincolnites (including yourself, Mr Shorb) have used LT >> extensively and effectively to opine on whether Israel's war is just. Now >> that LT is discussing whether Jewish people deserve the same rights as >> other people, we won't be able to use LT to do it? We've already shown we >> can do it. As Ms Mattes has said, we're an educated and sophisticated group. >> >> I reiterate my invitation to Mr Shorb, Ms Mattes, the Lows, and others to >> engage on LT as robustly as you have done in the past: Do the Jewish people >> deserve the same rights as other people? Should the Jewish people have the >> right of self-determination and the right to seek political power? Does the >> Jewish state have the right to advance its own geopolitical interests, to >> defend its citizens, and to deter those who wish its citizens harm? >> >> On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 5:15 PM Paul Shorb <paul.sh...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Jonathan - >>> I think an interactive debate / discussion would be a wonderful >>> learning opportunity. However, I'm not sure Lincoln Talk is a place where >>> that can be done effectively. (When I engaged in such a back-and-forth on >>> LT about the two speakers scheduled to appear at Bemis Hall recently, the >>> LT moderators cut us off after a few rounds, which is their prerogative.) I >>> wonder if a panel of speakers with different views could be organized, with >>> some sort of constructive format? That would take a lot of work to set up, >>> I recognize, but I'd certainly be interested to attend. >>> - Paul Shorb >>> >>> On Wed, Jan 1, 2025 at 4:50 PM Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I appreciate your suggestion, and I get where you're coming from. But >>>> movies can't talk to each other. People can. Therefore, I respectfully >>>> decline to outsource the case for Jewish equality to any movie. I see much >>>> talk of a "discussion of the issues" at some point in the future, but there >>>> is no reason for us to wait. We're already talking about this, let's have >>>> that debate right now. >>>> >>>> The selection, promotion, and defense of GRALTA's content make it clear >>>> that those involved possess deeply-held views of the Jewish people—just as >>>> I do. *I therefore invite Mr. Low, Ms. Low, Ms. Mattes, and any >>>> Lincolnites who disagree with me to share their rebuttal publicly on >>>> Lincoln Talk*: >>>> >>>> - I've argued that the Jewish people have the right to >>>> self-determination in their ancestral homeland, equal to that of Sikhs, >>>> Kurds, Druze, Samaritans, Yazidis, Zoroastrians, and other >>>> ethnoreligious >>>> minorities. >>>> - I've argued that the Jewish people have the right to organize and >>>> seek political power in countries where they reside, equal to that of >>>> Blacks, Hispanics, Asians, Arabs, LGBTQ+, and every other identifiable >>>> minority. >>>> - I've argued that the Jewish state has the right to advocate for >>>> its own geopolitical interests, equal to every other nation. >>>> - I've argued that the Jewish state has the right and >>>> responsibility not only to defend its citizens from harm, but also to >>>> deter >>>> those who wish its citizens harm, equal to every other nation. >>>> >>>> GRALTA's movies and speakers disagree with me on all of these points. I >>>> ask you, my neighbors, to step up to the digital microphone and make your >>>> case against my points in your own words. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Dec 30, 2024 at 5:57 PM Pat Gray <patg...@oatbit.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I presume that the Lincoln Public Library would welcome speakers >>>>> and/or a film and discussion highlighting the Israeli, Zionist history and >>>>> point of view, so we can be more informed and open up a discussion >>>>> representing all the perspectives of our residents. Yes? >>>>> Pat >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Dec 30, 2024at 5:38 PM, Roy Katz <katz....@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thank you Jonathan for this detailed and important response. >>>>> >>>>> Once again, a biased anti-Israeli, anti-zionist event is masquerading >>>>> itself as 'balanced' and 'educational'. Disappointedly, this bigoted event >>>>> is sponsored by the Lincoln Public Library. >>>>> >>>>> Pretending that this highly complex problem can be solved by blaming >>>>> the Jews is both sad and dangerous. In this 5-part 'educational' series >>>>> there is not even one discussion about the role of nationalistic and >>>>> islamic terrorism (first Fatah, then Hamas and other Islamic >>>>> organizations) >>>>> in executing hundreds of terror attacks, murdering thousands and as a >>>>> result stopping any effort for a peaceful resolution in its tracks. There >>>>> is not even one discussion how Jews, Muslims, and Christians CAN and >>>>> actually DO live together with equal rights as Israeli citizens. There is >>>>> no discussion how Hamas is terrorizing not just Israelis, but also >>>>> Palestinians within Gaza and the West Bank, murdering and torturing >>>>> 'sinners' and political dissenters. And most shockingly, there is not even >>>>> a mention of the October 7th massacre, the single deadliest day for Jews >>>>> since the holocaust and how it ignited the current ongoing war. >>>>> >>>>> Not to say that everything that Israel does should be celebrated - >>>>> there are many things to say about what the Israeli government is doing >>>>> horribly wrong. However, without understanding that the islamic terrorist >>>>> organizations, which are terrorizing Israeli and Palestinians alike, >>>>> prevent any hope for peace in the region, there will be no solution. >>>>> >>>>> But, my biggest disappointment is that this video-series event is >>>>> sponsored by the Lincoln Public Library. The event's purpose is at best >>>>> misguided and at worst harmful to its pretended cause. I hope this is an >>>>> oversight by the Library's trustees and they will reassess the library >>>>> sponsorship of this biased and harmful event. >>>>> >>>>> I lived in Israel for many years, have marched in numerous pro-peace >>>>> protests there, and consider myself both pro-Palestinian and Pro-Israeli. >>>>> I >>>>> believe there COULD be a solution, but only if people are willing to >>>>> accept >>>>> the complete reality, however complex it may be. >>>>> >>>>> Thank you, >>>>> Roy >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Dec 29, 2024 at 12:37 PM Jonathan Sheffi <jshe...@gmail.com> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm sad to see Lincolnites continuing to promote hatred and bigotry >>>>>> against minorities in our town. These movies do nothing to promote mutual >>>>>> understanding of the conflict in the Middle East. Unfortunately, they >>>>>> deliberately obscure it. >>>>>> >>>>>> *Israelism* >>>>>> >>>>>> The movie's claims of apartheid against Arabs are factually >>>>>> inaccurate: Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs possess equal rights, which >>>>>> are >>>>>> specifically enshrined in the Israeli Declaration of Independence >>>>>> <https://5a55e4ca.streaklinks.com/CQPEakcRkVJWFLPgWgo-B2iK/https%3A%2F%2Favalon.law.yale.edu%2F20th_century%2Fisrael.asp>: >>>>>> "We appeal... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to >>>>>> preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the >>>>>> basis >>>>>> of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its >>>>>> provisional >>>>>> and permanent institutions." >>>>>> >>>>>> Israeli Arabs have always been, and continue to be, an important part >>>>>> of Israel: Masad Bahoum manages the largest hospital in North Israel. Dr. >>>>>> Samer Haj-Yehia was the chairman of Israel's second-largest bank. Lucy >>>>>> Aharish is the anchor for the largest TV station in Israel. Mansour Abbas >>>>>> leads the United Arab List party in Israel, and his party was part of the >>>>>> governing coalition of Israel in 2021. Salim Joubran served on the >>>>>> Supreme >>>>>> Court of Israel until his death in March, and most notably was part of >>>>>> the >>>>>> panel that sent Moshe Katsav, a former Israeli president, to jail. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, this movie claims that Judaism is separable from Israel, which >>>>>> is factually inaccurate. A common misconception is that Judaism is only a >>>>>> set of religious practices. In fact, Judaism predates the concept of a >>>>>> religion. It is the cultural practices, history, and, yes, religion, of >>>>>> the >>>>>> people of ancient Judea. The words "Jew" and "Judaism" come straight from >>>>>> the name for the land, because Jewish cultural and religious practices >>>>>> were >>>>>> developed there thousands of years ago, and have referenced the land ever >>>>>> since. The movie's idea that the Jewish people "colonized" a place to >>>>>> which >>>>>> they are indigenous is inaccurate and harmful, as it serves to >>>>>> delegitimize >>>>>> the existence of Israel. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *The Lobby* >>>>>> >>>>>> The Israeli Ministry of Strategic Affairs leads efforts to combat >>>>>> hatred of the Jewish people and of the Jewish homeland. It is not covert. >>>>>> It is not a secret. It is not "black ops." Its aim is to work with people >>>>>> around the world to promote understanding of Israel and of the Jewish >>>>>> people. If you want to call it a government media relations office, sure. >>>>>> It's no different from what every other country does to promote its image >>>>>> and interests internationally. The USA has the Global Engagement Center, >>>>>> Canada has Global Affairs Canada, the UK has the Public Diplomacy >>>>>> department, and so on. >>>>>> >>>>>> Israel has the right to teach people who they are, and to promote >>>>>> their interests abroad, like every other nation. Denigrating Jews alone >>>>>> for >>>>>> a practice employed by virtually all nations shows prejudice against the >>>>>> Jewish people, and promotes an ugly conspiracy theory that Jews "run the >>>>>> media" or "run other governments." >>>>>> >>>>>> Furthermore, the choice to screen a film on the topic of propaganda >>>>>> from the nation of Qatar is especially ironic. Qatar itself is an >>>>>> autocracy >>>>>> that has engaged in significant propaganda and public diplomacy efforts >>>>>> to >>>>>> promote its image internationally and advance its geopolitical interests. >>>>>> Qatar has supported various Islamist movements, such as the Muslim >>>>>> Brotherhood, as part of its foreign policy strategy and through its news >>>>>> network, Al Jazeera. >>>>>> >>>>>> Finally, the film uses the word "Zionist" as a slur. Zionism has >>>>>> always had exactly one meaning: the belief in the right of the Jewish >>>>>> people to self-determine in their ancestral homeland. Those who >>>>>> believe that the Jewish people do not deserve this right are accurately >>>>>> termed "anti-Zionists." The word "Zionist" is no more a slur than >>>>>> "feminist." >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *Tantura* >>>>>> >>>>>> The provided definition of the Nakba is factually inaccurate. The >>>>>> term Nakba was coined in 1948 by Constantin al-Zureiq in his book *Ma'na >>>>>> an-Nakba* ("The Meaning of the Nakba"). The Nakba has nothing to do >>>>>> with Arabs who left the British Mandate of Palestine, and in fact, he >>>>>> barely references them in his book at all. The Nakba ("catastrophe") >>>>>> refers >>>>>> to the outcome of the Arab invasion of Israel in 1948. >>>>>> >>>>>> In his book, Al-Zureiq specifically defines the Nakba as the Arabs' >>>>>> failure to win the war in 1948 and destroy the Jews. He goes on to >>>>>> address >>>>>> the need for Arabs to accept responsibility for their defeat, learn from >>>>>> their mistakes, and adopt a rational and pragmatic approach going >>>>>> forward. >>>>>> This movie, on the other hand, alters the definition of the Nakba in >>>>>> order >>>>>> to demonize Jews and place all blame for the conflict with Jews alone. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *The War Around Us* >>>>>> >>>>>> This movie implies that Israel attacked Gaza unprovoked in 2008. This >>>>>> is also factually inaccurate. In 2008, Hamas was firing hundreds of >>>>>> rockets >>>>>> into Israel, as it has been off and on since Israel withdrew its presence >>>>>> from Gaza in 2005. In June 2008, Hamas and Israel agreed to a six-month >>>>>> ceasefire: Hamas stopped firing rockets into Israel, and Israel eased the >>>>>> naval blockade designed to intercept the importation of weapons into >>>>>> Gaza. >>>>>> >>>>>> In November 2008, the Israeli military discovered that Hamas had >>>>>> built a tunnel near Dayr al-Balah, about 250 meters from the border, in >>>>>> order to kidnap Israelis [a finding that turned out to be rather >>>>>> prescient >>>>>> given the kidnapping of over 200 Israelis on October 7th 2023]. Israel >>>>>> subsequently conducted an operation to destroy that tunnel, and only that >>>>>> tunnel. That operation led to rocketfire by Hamas against Israeli >>>>>> civilians, and from there to a resumption of the conflict. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> *In conclusion:* >>>>>> >>>>>> The conflict in the Middle East is extraordinarily complicated. We >>>>>> could spend days discussing the mistakes made by Israelis, Arabs, >>>>>> Egyptians, Syrians, Iranians, Saudis, Lebanese, Jordanians, Americans, >>>>>> Europeans, the United Nations, and so on, each of whom have furthered >>>>>> this >>>>>> conflict in many ways. However, these movies and speakers promote >>>>>> simplistic narratives that blame Jews, and Jews alone, for all problems >>>>>> in >>>>>> the region, and then use those narratives to delegitimize equal rights >>>>>> for >>>>>> the Jewish people. These movies do not promote mutual understanding. They >>>>>> do not promote peace. They promote hatred and bigotry. >>>>>> >>>>>> I hope that, as with the October 7th apologist who spoke a few weeks >>>>>> ago, Lincolnites will stand together against hatred and skip these >>>>>> movies. >>>>>> >>>>>> Thank you, >>>>>> >>>>>> Jonathan >>>>>> ᐧ >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Dec 23, 2024 at 6:29 PM Stephen R. Low < >>>>>> steve....@gordianconcepts.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> *Beginning in January, the GRALTA Foundation continues its >>>>>>> documentary film series that brings balance and expands our >>>>>>> understanding >>>>>>> of “The Holy Land Problem.”* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Each film is shown twice:* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - *First **on Thursday evenings at Bemis Hall (January 2 and 16; >>>>>>> February 6 and 20; March 6) at 7 PM* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - *Repeated** on Sunday afternoons at the Lincoln Public Library >>>>>>> (January 5 and 19; February 9 and 23; March 9) at 2 PM* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *If parking at the “Stone Church” (14 Bedford Road), as you face the >>>>>>> church, please park in spaces to the left of the building.* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Series Opener* *Israelism** (2023|US)**.* *January 2 (Bemis Hall) >>>>>>> and** January 5 (Lincoln Library*). When two young American Jews >>>>>>> raised to unconditionally love Israel witness the way Israel treats >>>>>>> Palestinians, they join a movement of young American Jews battling the >>>>>>> old >>>>>>> guard to redefine Judaism’s relationship with Israel. Runtime: 84 >>>>>>> minutes Trailer: >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/bondvm3hvGM “Eye-opening…an essential >>>>>>> exploration of the dramatic shift in Jewish attitudes toward Israel” ( >>>>>>> *Variety)* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *****Dual Award Winner***** >>>>>>> *San Francisco Jewish Film Festival* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Best Feature DocumentaryAudience Award (Feature Documentary)* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ***Winner*** >>>>>>> *Brooklyn International Film Festival* >>>>>>> *Board of Director’s Spirit Award* >>>>>>> Following each screening, there will be time for discussion and >>>>>>> questions for those who wish to stay. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> <image002.png> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Remaining Films in the Series* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - *The Lobby–Part 1* *(2017|Qatar) **January 16 (Bemis Hall) and >>>>>>> January 19 (Lincoln Library)**.** An undercover investigation >>>>>>> reveals Israel’s Ministry of Strategic Affairs, a semi-covert >>>>>>> black-ops >>>>>>> agency, collusion with an extensive network of US-based >>>>>>> organizations—not >>>>>>> registered as foreign agents as the law requires—to smear, sabotage, >>>>>>> and >>>>>>> repress Americans’ free speech rights. Suppressed by Zionist >>>>>>> pressure, but >>>>>>> ultimately leaked. Runtime: 48 minutes. Trailer: none available* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> - *My Tree* *(2021|Canada)* *February 6 (Bemis Hall) and >>>>>>> February 9 (Lincoln Library). My Tree follows Jason Sherman's >>>>>>> journey to >>>>>>> find the tree that was planted in his name in Israel many years >>>>>>> earlier. >>>>>>> When he discovers that it stands on the remains of a Palestinian >>>>>>> village >>>>>>> that was destroyed in 1967, he embarks on another journey—to >>>>>>> determine his >>>>>>> responsibility in helping to cover up the destruction. **Runtime: >>>>>>> 102 minutes. >>>>>>> Trailer: https://youtu.be/FdU4QiUE4gg <https://youtu.be/FdU4QiUE4gg> >>>>>>> * >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> · *Tantura* (2022|Israel) February 20 *(Bemis Hall)* and >>>>>>> February 23 (*Lincoln Library*). In the war of 1948, hundreds of >>>>>>> Palestinian villages were depopulated. Israelis call it “The War of >>>>>>> Independence.” Palestinians call it 'Nakba"'. The film examines one >>>>>>> village- Tantura and why discussion of the "Nakba" is taboo in Israeli >>>>>>> schools and society. Runtime: 94 minutes. Trailer: >>>>>>> https://youtu.be/HNtrUjUNkJw · *The War Around Us* (2014|US) >>>>>>> March >>>>>>> 6 *(Bemis Hall)* and March 9 (*Lincoln Library*). This riveting, >>>>>>> introspective film focuses on Ayman Mohyeldin (now an MSNBC anchor) and >>>>>>> Sherine Tadros, the only two international journalists in Gaza when >>>>>>> Israel >>>>>>> bombarded and invaded in 2008. A story of friendship under stress, >>>>>>> conflict-journalism ethics, and the catastrophic experience that Gazans >>>>>>> lived through during that *and in subsequent wars*. >>>>>>> Runtime: 77 minutes. Trailer: https://youtu.be/Un2rzydURWc >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *Regards,Steve Low* >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>>> Browse the archives at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >>>> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >>>> Browse the archives at >>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >>>> Change your subscription settings at >>>> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >>>> >>>> -- >> The LincolnTalk mailing list. >> To post, send mail to Lincoln@lincolntalk.org. >> Browse the archives at >> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/private/lincoln/. >> Change your subscription settings at >> https://pairlist9.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/lincoln. >> >>
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