Hello Gustavo and everyone else :) On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 9:35 PM, Gustavo Silva < gustavosantaremsi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 2015-01-18 6:32 GMT+00:00 Jonathan Aquilina <eagles051...@gmail.com>: > > > > see my responses inline. > > > > On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 6:02 AM, Ali Linx (amjjawad) <amjja...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> > >> Hi all, > >> > >> A moment of truth before it is too late :) > >> > >> I'm totally lost with many emails with the very same subject and/or > contents, talking about almost the same thing. The only difference is: > there are more than one email. But if someone read these emails, he/she > will find hard time to tell the 'real' difference and the real reason > behind several threads. I do fail to see the point here and have no idea > why? do we lack the basics of communications? or am I missing something > here? no blaming here, just being super honest and direct to the point. > >> Before X disagrees with Y and before Y responds to X, and before Z > steps in and do anything ... can we please take a moment and re-think in > different way? aren't we missing something MUCH MORE important and obvious > than a website and recruiting people or mailing lists or servers? perhaps I > was very wrong for NOT prioritize our to do list - blame me if you wish - > but let's look ahead and move forward .. in the same time, learn from our > mistakes. Something is missing here - to be discussed in #3 > >> We DO NEED a project/team structure BEFORE we start ANYTHING. Why? > because I, for one, have no idea what is going on? who is in charge of > what? why X steps in always and Y is watching? lots of unanswered Qs and > the reason is, I/We are discussing a LESS important topics thinking these > topics are the most important of all. No. We're wrong. We do miss much more > important step .. thanks to Gustavo who mentioned that in away on one of > his replies. > >> I'd suggest before we move forward with anything, we MUST come up with > a team structure and distribute the tasks :) without that, it would be a > REAL HUGE MESS. > >> Once we are done form that (it should take 24 maximum), we can move > forward in more effective, organized and productive way. > > > > Agree totally here to all points. > > > > Well, I mentioned all of that here: > https://lists.launchpad.net/kibo-project/msg00438.html > That is why I created that thread. > I saw your email. The reason why I didn't reply is because I felt we're missing something that is not mentioned on your email, thus I sent mine which is longer than yours (sorry about the length). Not trying to duplicate the information but rather show the blind point that IMHO we're not able to see. I could be wrong :) > Jonathan has been providing different messages and some are really > interesting - For instance, this morning he emailed us about Jabber. It is > not something to go to waste, but with mailing lists I feel that we can't > keep up with such things. It gets too confusing. > I find this a bit off-topic :( But away, nothing is going to waste here unless it is totally useless and not helpful. Can we please stick to the points we're replying to? this is why the mailing list gets confusing .. because when we're replying, we're not replying the above lines but different emails at the same time. This link should explain better than myself: http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/support/mailinglists/ I understand that only long time Ubuntu involved volunteers are following these notes. That's why I'm sharing it. It does not mean Kibo 'must' follow that by word but rather learn from it :) I find it worth mentioning. With all the mailing lists I'm part of, Kibo's list is the most confusing one (perhaps ToriOS at some points) and all because we're not following the correct approach when we send and reply emails. http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/support/mailinglists/ Example: you have replied Jonathan's email and talking to me. You should have replied mine ;) No blaming here and please don't be offended. I'm just explaining why Kibo's mailing list is a mess or confusing. By the way, mailing lists are very important because we're at different time zones + it keeps everyone in the loop. If we find a better platforms that could offer the previous mentioned features + new ones = I would be interested to move to it. Until that happens, I still think if we use the mailing list correctly, we could make the best out of it. Note: you're not required to use the mailing list if you need to talk to me + say Jonathan. I know you all know that already, just trying to cover the whole thing here. > > > >> > >> In short, I think the NEW priority to-do-list is: > >> > >> Team Structure: > >> > >> Each one of us MUST - IMHO - has a role. > >> Once each one of us has a role, he/she will have a tasks to do. > >> While it is very healthy to share opinions within the team, I find it - > specially in the future - very hard to carry on if X will step into Y's > area and so on. *While Kibo's concept is taken from Ubuntu where a whole > team could lead a project, that must be tweaked as Kibo is a business > project and tasks - IMHO - must be distributed wisely and before that, > roles must be decided first.* > > > > Agreed as well with the points. Are these set out on the website yet? If > not they should be that way one can go to the site and use it as a > reference as to whose doing what. In terms of back end server admin stuff. > Since I caused all this confusion I can kindly step back or push forward to > lead the infrastructure team. > > There aren't and shouldn't be on the website. > Agree and disagree. Please see my reply to Jonathan about that: https://lists.launchpad.net/kibo-project/msg00453.html > This was defined whenever we replied to a spreadsheet and Ali has been > trying to show us the current teams. > Are we talking about roles? tasks? I still don't know yet who is doing what?! > But... Didn't we already solve this part? I mean, we all know what we are > doing here. > I doubt that. We discussed it. We thought we solved it. It seems unsolved yet. > But, I'm confused. Are you angry because I put some content on the > website? > What? angry? I'm VERY happy that someone has done it. Yes, blame me for not doing it earlier but I have my own reasons which are personal (real life and non-kibo related issues). No excuses here. It is my fault. But hey, that's why we're a team and above all, that is why you have access to the website ;) It seems now we have Jonathan and Gustavo who are assuming stuff and believe it :D > Yes, it is not my role, but it is a priority so I got my hands to work. > Again, there is a reason why we're a team + there is a reason why you have access to the website. However, that doesn't solve the issue I brought earlier. We need to define roles + we need to assign tasks. So, if something is not done, we know who to approach. If something need to be done/fixed, we know where to go. I hope you all see my point here. We're doing things randomly now. Don't confuse what you have done with what Jonathan has done. While both comes from purely good intentions, one led to a bit of confusion and the other was great move to finally show some text on the website. > And personally, I feel the problem is > in that part that I bolded. Maybe I understood the concept of Kibo wrong, > but the concept taken from Ubuntu and open source is not actually > "free-stuff" or "open-source" business. Thus I disagree to share a lot of > stuff in our homepage in regard to the open-source world (thus my > mambo-jambo about our business model). > Again, it is my fault as the planner of this project. I should have created a blueprints that shows it. I have mentioned that on many emails but I believe these are lost in translations. Again: These are the stages of our website: Pre-Alpha: it is done. No need to discuss it. Alpha: the very current stage. Beta: after tweaking what we currently have + adjust the theme + add the better looking logo + make sure the text contents are okay, + other stuff. Final: when the website is fully ready to go public and we can safely share it among our friends and contacts. That should be 1-Feb-2015 as agreed in our meetings. That said, whatever you see on the website/homepage will NOT be there with the Beta version ;) As for Kibo, I guess there is a confusion. Kibo was born from the strict belief that FLOSS is the key to success nowadays in everything. Being Open Source does not mean give away and free (money). For me, it means way beyond that. The reason why I have spent 4 years with Free and Open Source Projects is because I highly believe in what I do and believe in the philosophy of the open source. FREE does not mean money, it means free will :) I'd like to invite you to have a look at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XTHdcmjenI That was my first inspiration to go for Kibo. However, it took more time until the idea developed to what we all see now. > However, it is using the open source tools to actually develop some work > to some potential customers and show them it can work as good as others to > fulfil their needs. > To make life easier for you: Open Source Philosophy is the very spirit of Kibo :) It is the core of Kibo. That does not mean Kibo is free non-profit project ;) Under "Open Source" page, we could put: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XTHdcmjenI and we could explain how we got inspired by all that to build Kibo. And, we could explain how we can be more powerful and better while we're following that as our core concept. I see no harm in that if we manage to display it the way everyone will get the idea we're trying to explain or show. > Even though people feel interested and excited for this, they tend to > overrun the concept, thus leading to " > Once each one of us has a role, he/she will have a tasks to do. > " that sometimes doesn't happen in Open Source projects. This is the exact > reason why I said something before like "Please don't forget this is > business". > Roles and tasks within Open Source Projects are different. That does not mean we can't learn from that and tweak it the way that suit us and work for us. I hope you all see what I'm trying to do here. Free Open Source Software > Ubuntu > Contribution for +4 years > Need a job > be the change you wish to see around you > Kibo That's the shortest description of how Kibo was born :D > Yet, I should clarify one particular bit: > I added content to the website because no one did before. > Indeed and I'm very thankful for what you did; thanks a lot :) > As you said and actually made a lot of sense, having stuff written in a > document is completely different of having it posted in our website. > Indeed, that is what I said. > I posted some stuff and could immediately note things that must be > changed. > Glad to know that :) > I wasn't usurping any responsibility and no one should feel like that. > Why you're assuming something that does not even exist?! I'm sad and sorry you felt that way and I'm sorry if by any chance, my email indicated such thing which is not what I wanted at all. > As a matter of fact, I decided to dedicate some time to do so. And once > again, this is a concerning part for me too: If I'm responsible for the > business here, then I must care about our presentation to people - > potential employees and customers. > If you ask 'me', you did the very right thing. > > > > > >> > >> Internal Team Communications: > >> > >> The current approach is definitely not healthy and not doing any good > to us at all. Something is wrong. Before we spend time, efforts and energy > to blame the platform, let's have a moment of truth and admit we're not > following the correct way to communicate. At least, this is what I feel. > Feel free to disagree with me. > > I agree and disagree. I agree we're using it wrong, but I disagree that > using it correctly will help. > Thank you for sharing your feedback in that regard. I explained earlier in my reply so no need to duplicate the information/replies IMHO. Please check above the section related to the mailing lists. > And I'm pretty certain the previous situation will happen again - It > already happened actually... I posted a thread and you needed to open > another one to send this email for instance, even though its content is 90% > based on what I already brought up to discussion here > <https://lists.launchpad.net/kibo-project/msg00438.html>. > It is not only with sending more than one thread for the same or similar ideas. That could happen with about ANY kind of communications, written or verbal, anywhere in the world between any people in the world :) To see where the problem is, we need to dig deep inside or even easier, have a general look at the threads/replies. Nothing perfect but things could be better IMHO if: http://community.ubuntu.com/contribute/support/mailinglists/ We follow that. > > > >> Once we find out what is wrong with our internal communications, we > need to find the BEST alternatives for US, not for the world. It is WE who > are going to use some platforms and before these are helpful for US, these > platforms MUST help Kibo. Remember, without Kibo, we're no longer a team if > you know what I mean. Kibo's project is gathering us under one roof. So, > whatever we need to go for, this must first of all help Kibo itself before > it helps us. What you don't like might help the project. What does not help > the project might be very great for you. Kibo first, then us. Feel free to > disagree with me and I'm open to any correction/suggestion/feedback. > > The problem IMO is this platform doesn't fit business (of any kind)... > Launchpad? I agree :) But are we now blaming the platform? or the concept itself? -1 to use Launchpad for business (Kibo). +1 to use the mailing list. I hope this is as clear as possible. > We are also using it wrong, yes, but we are doing things wrong because > that is how we want to do things. I saw this video yesterday about a review > of a to-do app and the guy said something that made me think why I am not > that keen on that specific task: "We must choose our app arsenal accordng > to us". If that's the case, then we must find the best alternative for us. > And honestly? Mailing lists will not suffice and sooner or later you'll > realize that. > Please see my previous reply above. I understand YMMV. Anyhow, to make life easier: we can use what we have and move slowly to different platforms. Someone can find us an alternative without flooding the mailing list with that ;) this is one way to use the mailing list but using it correctly :D After all, the mailing list will not flood itself with emails :D it is we who are sending emails here. So, if you ask me, before blaming the platform which is not good for business, let's admit we're too doing it wrongly. > > > >> If we are serious enough, why only Emily has sent me her phone number? > no trust? or you disagree? forgot? what is the reason why I have not > received any other phone number? > > >> We should have MORE than 1 platform to communicate. I would name: > >> > >> Phones for urgent and important stuff > >> Emails (not mailing lists, I mean E-mails) > >> Since we're meeting and doing video calls on Google Hangout, our > Google+ Community could be used as a secondary media or platforms. > >> Perhaps a 4th media/platform for internal communications NOT work > progress, projects, etc. I am talking about communications here :) > >> > >> > > Phones: will give you ali my number in private. and we can create a > group on whats app if that is what we are using. For me that is the easiest > and least costly to me in terms of messaging etc. > > emails: you already have everyones personal email from the LP mailing > list > > hangouts: sadly the time you guys meet I would be fast asleep. > > other platform: I want to suggest etherpad (its like google docs in a > way) it will allow us to share ideas as well as be a place for meeting > points to be put and different project tasks its an alternative to trello. > and open source > > What are we using? WhatsApp? > We're not using anything as of the moment I'm typing. I suggested that because that what works on my old phones. I guess Telegram can be installed on one of my phone but not the other one. > Even though I'm not pleased with the idea, as I've shown before, I didn't > share mine because I haven't been around and have been through hard times > to get some things done for my thesis. > No worries, I understand. Maybe one day, you'll see the befits of that. You do have a job, correct? do your boss or your company have your contact number? how do they contact you if they need you? could you share that with us, please?! > One thing: What are we going to do when the we are forced to pay for the > app? I think after 1 year of use they'll make it private-access only (aka > for those who pay). > I've been using Whatsapp for many years and have paid nothing until now. They keep renewing my account every year and I didn't pay anything :) If we're forced to pay, which is 1 USD per year, we can move to a free service :) While our main concern (money wise) is to spend as less as we could and earn as much as we can, sometimes, you really need to spend 1 or 2 USD to do something very useful. Just a thought! But again, I never paid for Whatsapp. > Can I suggest another structure? > - A cloud-based project management software (whichever you like) and that > would deal with project development, business management and even > chit-chats - or more serious chats. Oh, it would also help us store our > important docs in a more organized matter. It also helps with personalized > requests, avoiding the use of emails. > What project management software has to do with reaching someone in emergency? If I'm not wrong, people are still using Phones and/or emails. Remember: this is not about chatting, it is about contacting someone when needed. It is taking so much time and effort. To make life easier: please feel free to share or not to share your phone. I don't want to waste more time explaining how that is important with any business in anywhere. > - Hangouts for meetings (2 or more parties). > > This is what we're doing already. However, as I explained, I have 'old' phones. My phones can't handle any VOIP video apps such as Hangout. It can handle text based app better :( > > > >> > >> Website: > >> > >> The logo must be ready to be published. > >> Website Alpha should be ready in 24-48 hours from now. Once that is > ready, we can start tweaking, updating, adding, etc. > >> By 1st of Feb, 2015, the final version of our website must be up and > running as we discussed before. > >> Our website is not only for clients, it is also for newcomers we need > to recruit. This link: http://amjjawad.net/kibo/ is not helpful and > people need to 'see' more organized stuff. So, having an up and running > website is helpful in two ways: clients and recruiting. > >> While we believe in: "All of us are smarter than anyone if us", there > must be a website team who take FULL responsibility. Because we're only 7 > at this point, we need a technical person and someone who knows what to put > on the website. More might be helpful but I fail to see why we should > allocate more than 2 out of 7 for the website unless I'm missing something. > This should be done 'after' having a final website. Since we're at the > Alpha Stage for the website, I think more hands are needed unless I'm wrong. > > > > > This can stay on my server for now its no problem at all. I have > something else I want to implement to make things even quicker called HHVM > which does some interesting stuff with php. > > This is why I started believing you're upset because I uploaded some > content to the website. > Gustavo, please check my previous reply about that. I hate to repeat myself over and over again. Kindly, don't assume anything like that. If I'm upset, I'd come and say that directly :) Sorry again if my email showed the wrong idea. > First of all, I only copy-pasted your texts (and re-wrote some small > things actually) to see what it would look like. > I know and again, I'm thankful. > We're not advertising the thing, so I don't think there is harm on that. > +1 > While I agree with this paragraph, I think there's something I'm not > following: > - What is wrong about me or anybody else publishing content to the website > just to have an alpha version? > Nothing wrong at all. Sadly, you misunderstood what I meant. > - I think we can't dedicate too many people to it but I do think we need a > sys admin - to help us troubleshoot anything that comes up (like formatting > things) - and someone to update our blog frequently. > +1 > It can't be the same, since their areas of expertise are entirely > different. Once we have the website fully running, then I guess one person > is enough, but sometimes we might need help from our sys admin. > You misunderstood and misread my email: *While we believe in: "All of us are smarter than anyone if us", there must be a website team who take FULL responsibility. Because we're only 7 at this point, we need a technical person and someone who knows what to put on the website. More might be helpful but I fail to see why we should allocate more than 2 out of 7 for the website unless I'm missing something. * *This should be done 'after' having a final website. Since we're at the Alpha Stage for the website, I think more hands are needed unless I'm wrong.* The one with bold red can't be done unless we reach to the one in bold blue. I thought that was clear. Sorry if it wasn't. I'm sure it is now though! > > > >> > >> Recruit people: Only when all the above is done or at least we started > working on, we can start to recruit people from: > >> > >> Real Life: each one of us - IMHO - should help and recruit. > >> Social Media: by using different channels such as our own channels. > Kibo's channels are new and without followers now. Later, that can be > different. > >> Internet: Blogs, contact 3rd parties, etc. > >> Please note: there is NO harm to recruit people while working on the > above items, I am not saying do not recruit. I am setting priorities from > my eyes and I could be wrong :) > > I believe having the website running and social media, we'll be enough > to recruit people. > I'm sorry, I must disagree here. You have zero followers now. Kibo lives on the internet but it depends on humans who live on earth. There are two types: 1. Clients 2. Staff So, IMHO, and speaking from not short experience with recruiting: real life recruiting is more important IMHO. Once the website is up and running, I shall start recruiting people in real life. > > >> > >> > >> I couldn't sleep last night and I missed ToriOS's team because I > couldn't come up with the above list last night. I guess I managed to do > that now. > >> > >> I'm not an expert, I'm not perfect. I will never claim that in my > entire life. You could be better than me. You can do things in better ways > with better results. There are lots of things I might be wrong about. There > are too lots of things you could be correct about. All that is not > important, trust me. What does really matter is: Kibo and the team. > >> > >> All of us are smarter than anyone of us. Only, if that will be done in > the correct way. > >> > >> Every beginning is hard. > >>> > >>> Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they > were to success when they gave up. > >> > >> And, I'm sure you know who said that one :) > >> > >> I have started Kibo, not because I'm jobless and striving to find a > job. I have started Kibo because I believe in the concepts and above all, I > want to do something I love, not something I have to do just because I'm > forced to do just because I need money. Life worth much more than money. > You may disagree with me, that's fine, but this is how I see it from my > eyes. > >> > >> Last but not least, our disagreements should NOT tear us apart, period. > >> > >> Have a wonderful day, everyone! > >> > >> P.S. > >> > >> I don't want to share my own number on a public mailing list but once > you send yours, I shall reply with mine. > >> > >> P.S.2 > >> > >> We need to use a free messaging service and the best option for me now > is Whatsapp. Works on my two very old phones :) > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us." > >> Best Regards, > >> Ali/amjjawad > >> http://torios.org - StartUbuntu - Ubuntu GNOME - http://amjjawad.net > >> > >> -- > >> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kibo-project > >> Post to : kibo-project@lists.launchpad.net > >> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kibo-project > >> More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Jonathan Aquilina > > > > -- > > Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kibo-project > > Post to : kibo-project@lists.launchpad.net > > Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kibo-project > > More help : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp > > > > > > -- > Best Regards / Obrigado e com os melhores cumprimentos, > Gustavo > > I know you guys will hate me for such super long reply but I had to. Hope things are clear now?! I'd shoot myself if not :P hehe -- Remember: "All of us are smarter than any one of us." Best Regards, Ali/amjjawad <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/amjjawad> http://torios.org - StartUbuntu <https://wiki.ubuntu.com/StartUbuntu> - Ubuntu GNOME <http://ubuntugnome.org/> - http://amjjawad.net
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