Thanks to everyone for the replies so far! The thought that the
Devanagari scribe might be writing the vocalic ऌ with an "ū" sign is
pretty interesting, I didn't think of that! I'd be curious to know if
anyone has seen the consonant ḷa (ള/ள/ಳ) written as a vocalic ऌ.
On RE33635, I also thought it was a weird Malayalam script at first, but
the IFP catalogue describes it as Tigalari. In case anyone is
interested, images of the full manuscript are available grace à l'IFP,
from their manuscripts database:
https://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/online/manuscripts/
On IO SAN 1758, and on the text in general, which might be called the
Karnāṭakapriya[vyākhyāna] of Lakṣmaṇaśāstrī, Colebrooke's catalogue
entry transcribes the author's verses at the beginning:
https://archive.org/details/p1a4catalogueofs01greauoft/page/276/mode/1up
Best,
Charles
On 2023-03-24 16:18, Christophe Vielle wrote:
Thank you dear Charles for this example (of a Kannada text in
Tigalari/Tuḷu – very close indeed to Malāyaḷam script — " Āryeḻuttu"
script family I would say, versus Kōleḻuttu and Maḷayāṇma scripts
belonging to the [recent] "Vaṭṭeḻuttu" family of the south-western
coast) with the retroflex rendered by a special sign in Devanagari:
linguistic reasons (?) for not normalizing it in -l-; anyway I never
saw that before.
Best wishes,
Christophe
Le 24 mars 2023 à 14:48, Anna Aurelia Esposito
<[email protected]> a écrit :
Dear Charles,
the second photo is Malayalam, not Kannada.
Best wishes,
Anna
Zitat von Charles Li via INDOLOGY <[email protected]>:
Hi everyone,
Since we're on the topic of Kannada and the retroflex ḷ, I was
wondering if anyone has seen this weird Devanagari sign for "ḷa".
I'm attaching two photos of the same passage from a Kannada
commentary on the Amarakoṣa, the first one in Devanagari script
(British Library IO SAN 1758), and the second in Tigalari (IFP
RE33635). The passage reads:
guṇāḥ | guṇagaḷū |
As seen in RE33635, the last character is "ḷū". But Devanagari
scribe consistently uses a funny sign, a kind of ल with an extra
hook, to transcribe this. Has anyone seen this anywhere else?
Best,
Charles
On 2023-03-24 14:18, Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY wrote:
Dear all,
In Kannada, too, Sanskrit words are often written with a retroflex
ḷ (ಳ = ळ) where we might have expected l (ಲ = ल). The retroflex ḷ
in Sanskrit words is called by the name kṣaḷa (ಕ್ಷಳ) in Kēśava's
Śabdamaṇidarpaṇam (1260 CE). Kēśava (or Kēśirāja, as he is also
known) distinguishes this sound from the retroflex ḷ found in
Kannada words, called kuḷa (ಕುಳ), which is however written with
exactly the same letter (ಳ). Kēśava further notes that the kṣaḷa
and kuḷa (ಳ = ळ) can serve as equivalents for the sake of prāsa
(second-letter alliteration), whereas the dental l (ಲ = ल) cannot
alternate with either of them.
I don't know precisely (a) why Kēśirāja felt it necessary to
distinguish between the Sanskrit and Kannada retroflex ḷ; and (b)
why the retroflex ḷ (kṣaḷa) occurs optionally in some Sanskrit
words, in some positions, and not in others. Kittel in his /Grammar
of the Kannada Language /pp. 14–15
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fin.gov.ignca.23505%2Fpage%2F13%2Fmode%2F2up&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6zP26X299xcrvTg1G1m8T5R8faN8G0JB6cZjXMApo8M%3D&reserved=0
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fin.gov.ignca.23505%2Fpage%2F13%2Fmode%2F2up&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6zP26X299xcrvTg1G1m8T5R8faN8G0JB6cZjXMApo8M%3D&reserved=0>>, §30,
says: “It is often used by Kannaḍa people as a substitute for the
Saṁskṛita ಲ (= ल), the sound of which in the Saṁskṛita language
apparently bears a dubious character for them, one that is neither
their ಲ (= ल) nor their ಳ (= ळ); this ಳ (= ळ) is Kêšava’s kṣaḷa.” I
interpret this to mean: whereas Kannada clearly distinguishes a
dental and retroflex lateral, Sanskrit does not, and the Sanskrit
lateral is pronounced somewhere between a dental and retroflex
position (kind of like the "dental" stops in most kinds of American
English), with some phonotactically-conditioned variation within
this range. The exact conditions of this variation remain a little
obscure, but Kēśava does after all call the consonant kṣaḷa, which
suggests that the retroflexion is found (among other places) in
those same contexts where dental n is retroflexed to ṇ.
Christophe's observation that retroflex ḷ is not used
word-initially accords with my impression of Kannada usage.
Andrew
On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 5:08 AM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY
<[email protected]> wrote:
I was in course of stating more or less the same as Anna Aurelia
about the Malayalam script manuscripts, observing the regularity
of the use of the retroflex for peculiar words, which, I would
add, usually preserve this peculiarity in their
borrowing/inclusion within Malayalam language. The retroflex is
systematically replaced by -l- in the Devanagari manuscripts which
are transcripts of Malayalam script mss., with the problem that
this retroflex can in fact also sometime be used for -ḍ- (see
below /jaḷa/ for /jaḍa/ etc.).
Contrasting examples are /viḷambita/ (cf. /viḷambase/ in
Esposito's post) with a "forced" intervocalic -l- > -ḷ- after a
prefixe (/lamb- /alone being written with l-),
versus///vilo//ḷita/ keeping the initial -l- of the theme after
the prefixe. A more complete listing of the forms of the concerned
words (from the apparatus in crit. ed. mentioning them) should be
made for drawing linguistic conclusions. The references of Philipp
Maas are useful in this respect.
A few samples from a text in course of edition
vilolita : viloḷita
kuntala : kuntaḷa
lalita : laḷita
pulinā : puḷinā
milatpulakakuḍmalaṃ : miḷatpuḷakakuḍmaḷaṃ
valakṣagu : vaḷakṣagu
kalakala : kaḷakaḷa
alinda : aḷinda
gala : gaḷa
antarāla : antarāḷa
pacelima : paceḷima
bahala : bahaḷa
gadula : gaduḷa
nalina : naḷina
bakula : bakuḷa
vilambita : viḷambita
jaḍa : jaḷa
From a purāṇa text:
/pātāla /:///pātāḷa/
/śālin- /: /ṣāḷin//-/
/tolikā /: /toḷikā/
/argala-/: /arggaḷa-/
/vyāla/- : /vyāḷa/-
/bala- / : /vaḷa-/
/karāla- /:///karāḷa-/
/pralaya- /: /praḷaya-/
/dhūli/- : /dhūḷi/-
/alakā- : //aḷakā-/
/-viluḍī/- : -/viluḷī/-
-/jaḍī/- : -/jaḷī/-
/-vrīḍam /: /-vrīḷam/
/kṣveḍita-/ : /kṣveḷita-/
/thuḍa- /:///thuḷa/-
/huḍa- / : / huḷa-/
Le 24 mars 2023 à 09:29, Anna Aurelia Esposito
<[email protected]> a écrit :
Dear Harry Spier,
I found the same in drama manuscripts written in Malayāḷam
script. In particular Sanskrit words intervocalic l is replaced
by ḷ. This usage persevers not only in all manuscripts, but also
in the editions printed in Malayāḷam script (see e.g. the
edition of the “Trivandrum Plays” ascribed to Bhasa of Bhāskaran,
1987).
In Cārudatta ascribed to Bhāsa we find for example ḷ in I.2a
dehaḷīnām, I.13b bahaḷa-, I.13b -kāḷā-, I.26.38 viḷambase, III.8b
karāḷo, III.10b -kākaḷīṣu, III.12d nīḷa-, in Dūtavākya -kaḷaṅka-
35.1, -praḷaya- 47c and *49c, -laḷitā- *47a.
So far, no one has been able to explain to me why the l has been
changed to ḷ in these words, and consistently in every manuscript
(and also in the printed edition). A possible explanation would
be, as you suggest, that one scribe read the text and the other
wrote it; but in some cases it is evident from the errors in the
manuscripts that the text was copied and not written down by
hearing. I am curious if someone from the list can give us an
explanation.
Best wishes,
Anna Esposito
Zitat von Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <[email protected]>:
Dear list members,
I'm looking at the devanagari transcription of a south indian
grantha
manuscript. most consonent l's are the classical sanskrit l
i.e. ल but
some words have the letter, ळ .
Some examples are:
प्रक्षाळ्य
नाळिकेरोद्भवंपादौप्रक्षाळ्याचम्यमुकुळीकृतियपिण्गळायवामांघ्र्यब्जदळासह्रिताम्अण्गुळ्यग्रेणशुद्धविद्यातत्वव्याप्तसर्वमणळोपेतं
I'm pretty sure this isn't from typist misprints because प्रक्षाळ्य
occcurs many times always spelled with ळ
Any explanations would be appreciated. My understanding is that
sometimes
manuscripts were created by one scribe speaking the text and
another scribe
writing what he hears. Is that a possible explanation for the
occurance of
this letter ळ . I.e. local pronounciation creeping in.
Thanks,
Harry Spier
**********
PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
**********
Universität Würzburg
Lehrstuhl für Indologie
Philosophiegebäude, Zi. 8U6
Am Hubland
97074 Würzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
**********
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de%2Findologie%2Fmitarbeiter%2Fesposito%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=71Yko50kkWyxZQ%2Bqv5ECC9FPyA8QDSCDIvHBrITF2PI%3D&reserved=0
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de%2Findologie%2Fmitarbeiter%2Fesposito%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=71Yko50kkWyxZQ%2Bqv5ECC9FPyA8QDSCDIvHBrITF2PI%3D&reserved=0>
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de%2Findologie%2Fmitarbeiter%2Fesposito%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=71Yko50kkWyxZQ%2Bqv5ECC9FPyA8QDSCDIvHBrITF2PI%3D&reserved=0
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de%2Findologie%2Fmitarbeiter%2Fesposito%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=71Yko50kkWyxZQ%2Bqv5ECC9FPyA8QDSCDIvHBrITF2PI%3D&reserved=0>>
**********
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
[email protected]
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0>
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0>>
–––––––––––––––––––
Christophe Vielle
<https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
[email protected]
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0>
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
[email protected]
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0
**********
PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
**********
Universität Würzburg
Lehrstuhl für Indologie
Philosophiegebäude, Zi. 8U6
Am Hubland
97074 Würzburg
Germany
Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
**********
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de%2Findologie%2Fmitarbeiter%2Fesposito%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=71Yko50kkWyxZQ%2Bqv5ECC9FPyA8QDSCDIvHBrITF2PI%3D&reserved=0
<https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de%2Findologie%2Fmitarbeiter%2Fesposito%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=71Yko50kkWyxZQ%2Bqv5ECC9FPyA8QDSCDIvHBrITF2PI%3D&reserved=0>
**********
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
[email protected]
https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0
–––––––––––––––––––
Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
Louvain-la-Neuve
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
[email protected]
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
