Dear Satyanad (if I may too), dear Jean-Luc, Thanks for these further comments!!!
With very best wishes. Manu ----------------------------------------- *Emmanuel FRANCIS-GONZE* Chargé de recherche CNRS Centre d’études sud-asiatiques et himalayennes 2 Cours des Humanités 93322 AUBERVILLIERS bureau A222 ✆ 01 88 12 01 82 Online CV HAL <https://cv.archives-ouvertes.fr/emmanuel-francis> Le ven. 17 mars 2023 à 08:36, Satyanad KICHENASSAMY < [email protected]> a écrit : > PS : regarding e and o : if the examples do refer to long e and o, then > the line should perhaps be interpreted as a correction over an existing dot. > > On Thu, 16 Mar 2023 23:18:25 +0100 > Satyanad Kichenassamy <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Dear Jean-Luc, Dear Manu (if I may), > > > > Indeed, I was talking about all of the forms both of you mentioned, > namely > > > > - long ra with a vinculum > > - short ra with a macron. The macron may even be linked to the ra if one > > writes very fast. > > - line covering a puḷḷi (to correct a mistake) > > > > The first two enable disambiguation. It is not clear to me from a > > historical viewpoint whether they were introduced for the purpose, or > > whether they were natural evolutions (people do tend to link characters > > together when they write fast). The aesthetic dimension may also be > > relevant. > > > > These are forms in use in my family. I am attaching a photograph with > > examples in my own handwriting. My parents used the same and, as I said, > > I have encountered them in manuscripts but didn't make a special note of > > them since these forms were familiar to me. > > > > The vinculum is a line to "link together" several characters; > > mathematicians, especially British, used to write this over expressions > > as a substitute for a parenthesis. Thus, in (self-explanatory) LaTeX > > code, \overline{x+y} means (x+y). (This is consistent with the Latin > > etymology: a /vinculum/ is a link, /in vincula/ means in fetters etc.) > > The first example seemed to me to be a vinculum rather than a macron > > since it links the two characters. > > > > About the examples with e and o, it may be that the additional marks are > > sloppily written puḷḷi-s and not bars. I am referring to தொல்காப்பியம், > > எழுத்ததிகாரம், நூன்மரபு 15-16 that read : > > > > மெய்யி னியற்கை புள்ளியொடு நிலையல் > > எகர ஒகரத் தியற்கையு மற்றே. > > > > (For people who do not read Tamil, this means that consonants > > intrinsically stand with a dot, and that short e and short o have the > > same intrinsic feature. Tolkaappiyam is the first grammar of classical > > Tamil; it actually includes quite a bit of literary analysis in addition > > to grammar in the narrow sense and, as we see here, treats language as > > written as well as spoken.) > > > > Kind regards to both, > > > > Satyanad K. > > > > Le 16/03/2023 à 20:12, Jean-Luc Chevillard a écrit : > > > Dear Satyanad, > > > > > > as a clarification, > > > are you talking about the special forms seen in this image, > > > taken from a 17th cent. Goa MS > > > in the words which would nowadays be printed as > > > ஆரோபிக்கிறது, ஆரோகணம், ஆரோக்கியம், ஆரோசை? > > > > > > (I obtained those images from Cristina Muru, many years ago) > > > > > > Best wishes > > > > > > -- Jean-Luc > > > > > > > > > On 16/03/2023 16:33, Satyanad KICHENASSAMY wrote: > > >> > > >> Dear Charles, > > >> > > >> Nice project. Please let us know when the revised font will be > > >> available. Regarding the long ra, I assume you are planning to create > > >> a glyph for the character with a vinculum? (Or is it already there?) > > >> Similarly, the short ra is often written with a macron to avoid > > >> confusion. > > >> > > >> One may want to include also the lines that are used to cover a > > >> pu.l.li (and thus, restore the vocalization). > > >> > > >> Best, > > >> > > >> Satyanad K. > > >> > > >> Le 16/03/2023 à 11:42, Charles Li via INDOLOGY a écrit : > > >>> > > >>> Hello, > > >>> > > >>> At the TST Project, where we're cataloguing Tamil manuscripts, we've > > >>> forked Noto Tamil and started adding old ligatures, like pre-reform > > >>> ṇā, ṟā, etc. as well as some ligatures that don't seem to have > > >>> appeared before in print, such as the below-base "ma" ligatures. See > > >>> this page for examples: > > >>> > > >>> https://tst-project.github.io/editor/entities.html > > >>> > > >>> It's still a work in progress! > > >>> > > >>> Best, > > >>> > > >>> Charles > > >>> > > >>> On 2023-03-16 11:08, Satyanad KICHENASSAMY wrote: > > >>>> Dear All, > > >>>> > > >>>> To follow up on Harry Spier's query, the typesetting of the older > > >>>> Tamil characters (as well as Tamil Grantha) is sometimes > > >>>> problematic. I use Akshar Unicode for contemporary Tamil, which is > > >>>> very close to the standard printed characters, but insert some > > >>>> characters from Vaigai for the classical characters -- that were > > >>>> actually the standard characters when I grew up. For Grantha, the > > >>>> e-Grantamil font is nice even though less close to the characters > > >>>> in print, but the ligatures are sometimes undone automatically, for > > >>>> reasons that I do not understand. Also, I gather it is encoded in > > >>>> the same segment as Bengali, which is another source of confusion. > > >>>> The final output can be fine, though, see examples in the following > > >>>> paper: > > >>>> > > >>>> https://www.persee.fr/doc/crai_0065-0536_2018_num_162_4_96658 > > >>>> > > >>>> This being said, if there is a better solution, I would be > interested. > > >>>> > > >>>> For a diplomatic edition, it would be nice to have fonts that > > >>>> contain as many variants as possible. Similarly, Southern Sanskrit > > >>>> manuscripts should be reproduced in their original script if > > >>>> possible, especially in diplomatic editions. For instance, va and > > >>>> ba in printed Grantha are easier to disinguish than in Nagari (this > > >>>> is also true in those palm-leaf mss that I have used). > > >>>> > > >>>> I remember seeing proposals arguing that some characters usually > > >>>> encoded in Unicode as ligatures in Indic language fonts should be > > >>>> treated as stand-alone glyphs, at least in Tamil. The reason is > > >>>> that you sometimes see letters such as "mo" rendered as > > >>>> "kompu-(blank in a dotted circle)-lengthening mark-ma" which is of > > >>>> course nonsense. The placement of diacritics is also misleading at > > >>>> best, as was pointed out on this list a few days ago. This is in > > >>>> addition to the issues raised by Jean-Luc Chevillard (for instance, > > >>>> the ர் cannot be written without the lower diagonal stroke on some > > >>>> fonts). > > >>>> > > >>>> Of course, whether one decides to overlook the differences in > > >>>> variants of one character always involves judgment. An extreme > > >>>> example would be the different versions of the character 之 in the > > >>>> famous calligraphy 蘭亭集序 Lántíngjí Xù by 王羲之 Wáng Xīzhī. For > > >>>> India, the விநாயகர் சுழி vinaayakar cu_li has slightly different > > >>>> forms depending on writers, some of which may be worth recording > > >>>> (recall that this symbol is a form of the pra.nava; the same issue > > >>>> could be raised about the pra.nava in other scripts). > > >>>> > > >>>> Best, > > >>>> > > >>>> Satyanad Kichenassamy > > >>>> > > >>>> On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 13:33:42 -0400 > > >>>> Harry Spier via INDOLOGY<[email protected]> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Received thanks to Victor Davella > > >>>>> Harry Spier > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Wed, Mar 15, 2023 at 1:21 PM Harry > > >>>>> Spier<[email protected]> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> Can someone recommend a good free unicode font for modern Tamil. > > >>>>>> I.e. > > >>>>>> provide a link to download this. > > >>>>>> Thanks, > > >>>>>> Harry Spier > > >>>>>> > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> INDOLOGY mailing list > > >>> [email protected] > > >>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > >> > > >> -- > > >> ********************************************** > > >> Satyanad KICHENASSAMY > > >> Professeur des Universités > > >> LMR (CNRS, UMR9008) > > >> Université de Reims Champagne-Ardenne > > >> F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 > > >> France > > >> Web:http://phare.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy > > >> ********************************************* > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> INDOLOGY mailing list > > >> [email protected] > > >> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology > > > > -- > > ********************************************** > > Satyanad KICHENASSAMY > > Professeur des Universités > > Laboratoire de Mathématiques (LMR, CNRS, UMR9008) > > Université de Reims Champagne-Ardenne > > F-51687 Reims Cedex 2 > > France > > Web:http://phare.normalesup.org/~kichenassamy > > ********************************************** > > > -- > Satyanad KICHENASSAMY <[email protected]> >
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