It may not please many, but I could not agree more to what tarun has
written.
On Sun, 2003-03-16 at 18:57, Tarun Dua wrote:
> > first of all, an excellent response from tarun dua on the draft.
> --Thanks LL
>
> > IMHO FLOSS is beyond any mess that any bureaucrat, government, or
> > corporate can make.
> That is dangerous thinking!!! Look what a mess GOI bureaucrats made with
> regard to Internet.
> All this coz' of just a few high profile fraudulent DNR squatting cases
> 1. The Indian Domain Name Registration business was killed by who else but
> bureaucrats from GOI.
> It costs me less to register a .com or a .net domain than a .co.in domain
> because of the high
> Total Cost of acquisition of Indian domains. There is no Indian whois ( a
> premier research institute was one of them which was entrusted with the task
> of maintaining the whois information, but all of them fail to fulfill their
> responsibility) and so do the commercial DNR organizations. I am itched
> because we can't use a standard way to find out about abuse information
> indian domains. ( Correct me -- I may be wrong )
> The country specific TLD .in would have minted money for GOI in the form of
> royalty if it was an easy DNR process. Because people arount the world
> would have bought DN's like "come.in" "go.in" and so on by millions(look at
> the existing number of .com's , .biz etc)
> Typically government would make it mandatory to ask you questions like
> these for providing a DN to you
> (WARN: these questions are similar not same as the ones that are/would
> be/being asked when you want to get a Indian DN .ind.in -- for individuals)
> When were you born ? Why were you born ? Are you sure you are born
> yet i.e. show us your birth certificate ? Get 6 copies of the form attested
> from Zila Tehsi.... and whatever ?
> Ditto for various other types of DNs.
>
> 2. Look at the early experimental Networks ( ernets, nicnets etc. etc.. )
> how well they are serving the needs of our educational Institutions
>
> 3. Look at the Telecom mess that also affected the growth of ISP's -- One
> result is the ISP's in India still don't have much incentive to interconnect
> with one another and still find it easier to route packets to one another
> through US based backbones.
>
> 4. Internet -- the empowerment-knowledge-freedom it provides is still a
> mirage to our bandwidth starved country because of difficult laws made by
> some really clueless people.
> < Not Ranting about Cyberlaws around the world for now >
>
> > the only mess that happens in the FLOSS world, happens
> > from *within* the FLOSS community. it is quite immune and insular to the
> > *outside* world. which is why it is so successful despite governments,
> > despite ruthless corporates, and despite no understanding or awareness of
> it
> > in the outside world, which is quite paradoxical.
>
> FLOSS community is not insular -- rather it is pervasive.
> It is not despite but because of ruthless corporates that it thrives.
>
> > why? becuase the FLOSS model is of the cathedral and the bazaar.
> Its the "bazaar model" .
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > Asking the government funds for FLOSS will kill FLOSS,
> > > why ??
> > > i) We do not want some politician's son/daughter would be the
> > > maintainer for India specific FLOSS projects.
> >
> > the greatness of the cathedral and bazaar model, is that despite even such
> a
> > horrendous scenario, the madness of the model will ensure its success.
> people
> > will fork, people will work, FLOSS *ensures* meritocracy, and the
> bureaucracy
> > despite any thing cannot change that fundamental truth. let them try. i'd
> > love to see them fall.
> So why push them to try what they are going to mess with in any case.
> Consider the following scenarios.
>
> 1. FLOSS has funding available to GOI sponsered project ( now this the
> Official GOI-FLOSS project ).
> The way the government works . This gets entered into the list of approved
> vendors/lists/ and huge number of paper databases all over the country in
> Educational Institutions.
> Now the poor developers from all over contribute code to a semi-govt. org.
> which makes a mess of it.
> Even if Linuxlingam decides to fork it. The govt. departments who merely
> follow the written word in toto without
> applying an iota of intelligence more to fulfill the rules than for a
> purpose will use the same project from the GOI-FLOSS thus working to curtail
> freedom not increase it.
>
> 2. FLOSS funding is cornered by elite institutions , research institutions
> who don't understand what is a bazaar -- they make cathedrals out of it.
>
> 3. FLOSS funding starts to get channeled by GOI agencies for NGO's--- FLOSS
> becomes an epitome of corruption in India-- Corporate funding dries up.
> FLOSS is dead.
>
> These are only a few scenarios I can cook up being a mere outsider --- what
> will actually happen when India babu goes into floss is "Gawd Knows"
>
> Then these are only economic consequences -- if we have a couple of lenthy
> laws much worse can happen to the nascent FLOSS Industry.
>
> > > ii) We do not want FLOSS project grants to be given away to the
> > > hopelessly inefficient govt. of India Research and Development Centers
> > > and siphoned off from there to I don't know where.
> >
> > i propose the government creates FLOSS projects hosted on savannah,
> sarovar,
> > attracting intelligent minds.
> >
> > incidentally, the real reason to tax, is to discourage OEM bundling, and
> to
> > level the playing ground for those who are thus barred from competing,
> > especially FLOSS.
> > taxing also will have a similar impact on off-the-shelf commercial
> non-free
> > software.
> > plus, given the taxation, people may want to actively explore FLOSS. And
> > FLOSS is not, and can not be owned by the INdian government. No
> government,
> > no organisation, can own freedom-based software.
> > everybody owns freedom-based software.
> > if you understand this, you will realize the indian government can only
> > support its creation and no matter how inept it may be, the process will
> > create something of high-quality towards world culture heritage.
> >
> > > iii) Govt. of India is a collection of vested Interests influenced
> > > by unscrupulous businesses and what not
> >
> > aren't some of those businesses probably some of these commercial,
> non-free
> > software companies? won't asking the government to tax them dilute this
> > vested interest? all the more reason, i think. what do others at
> linux-delhi
> > think?
> Fortunately much of Indian Software Industry ( At least the big
> corporations ) will come out clean on this.
> The pioneers of this Industry have proved themselves to be above board.
> Cheers !!!
>
> > [snip]
> > > How does the government define Commercial.
> > > FLOSS doesn't mean free as in Beer but Free as in Freedom.
>
> > i know this is controversial, but even taxing FLOSS sold for a price will
> > work. again, it emphasizes to people they can get free-of-price FLOSS if
> they
> > wish. and if they are willing to pay a price, then the government taxes to
> > further use that money for accelerated development and adoption.
>
> Another Scenario:-
> FLOSS will have to unbundle the associated services and pay service tax.
> Opens a pandora box.
> Bureaucratic busy bodies too will assume things are not fluid and fix up
> things should happen in this particular way and one find oneself filing
> FLOSS FORM-XXXA(IX) for proving that this component is service and that is
> software and that I din't write this component but I have to sell it and
> sorts of convoluted things like undertakings on free/non-free portions and
> even why TD-OS costs Rs. xxx and you give it away for free -- are you
> laundering money, or why TD-OS package pays service tax while you want us
> charge M$ excise.
> Debates - like mobility vs limited moblity -- what is a circle will erupt
> in software industry ( and with government involvement) too.
>
>
> > by the way, FLOSS when sold for a price is usually inexpensive. do note
> that
> > when some FLOSS-driven sale is huge in price, it means lurking within the
> > soup must be some non-free software....
> >
> > besides, providing services such as training, consulting, etc., even on
> Free
> > and freedom-based software, is gonna attract a service tax, according to
> the
> > new budget proposal.
> >
> >
> > [snip]
> > >
> > > So noble who are we to decide about the best interests of all Indian
> > > Corporates and Government Give them Freedom to Choose thats where our
> role
> > > ends. They are Free Not to be Free if they desire so.
> >
> > Wrong. They cannot be free even when they want to be, thanks to the tight
> > grip of non-free software. taxing discourages that grip, accelerates
> adoption
> > and development of freedom-based software, and gives people a
> level-playing
> > ground to *really* choose between being free and not being free, if they
> > desire.
> Taxing doesn't discourage but increases clamour of various Lobbies, Special
> Interest Groups, for a huge
> number of complex exemptions etc which will ultimately reduce the collective
> strength of the Free/OSS community which is very fragmented.
> Not does it make you look towards free alternatives where none exist due to
> the small size of the bazaar.
>
>
>
> > > > 2) Almost all commercial software are non-free. This means, they do
> not
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> > i make a strong distinction between mere open-source' software, and
> > freedom-based software. when a software guarantees *all* the freedoms
> > mentioned earlier, it is freedom-based.
>
> So we may have TD-Ransom license ( which was/would/will be released under
> FDL) competing with GPL to get government attention for the TAX concessions.
> How long will a "Linuxlingum Committee" on Software Tax Reforms take to come
> out with its findings ( by which time technology will have changed the
> ethics/clean seperations of the Software/FLOSS world out of recognition).
>
>
> > > We are a democratic country not a free country, do not harbor any
> > > illusions (period)
> >
> > agreed. i wish to ensure we remain a democratic country which is not under
> > the tyranny of strong, powerful, non-free software business interests. we
> are
> > gradually losing the right to vote for freedom-based software even in
> > schools, for instance. democracy is of the people, by the people, for the
> > people. simiarly, freedom-based software is of the people, by the people,
> for
> > the people. i see no conflict, only synergy in a democratic country
> adopting
> > freedom-based software.
> I never said that a democratic country shouldn't adopt free software, but
> let its free people decide to choose it
> rather than a government forcing it.
> The writ of our government is only used to browbeat honest
> businesses/salaried professionals into submission.
> Anything suggested by government will end in failure like so many other
> laws( we have too many ) which have been worked around with the connivance
> of corrupt people who man it.
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > 4) these freedoms also significantly curtail strong anti-competitive
> > > > behaviour in the software industry.
> > >
> > > They will do so without any form of overt Govt. Support as well.
> >
> > more than the support for FLOSS, it is the sort of 'penalizing' non-free
> > software that is important.
> >
> > look, non-free software businesses make billions of dollars, without
> having
> > to even pay taxes for it, and hoard the wealth. and they have created huge
> > barriers for freedom-based software, else given that gnu was founded in
> the
> > mid-eighties, its universal acceptance would have happened decades ago.
> Non-free software businesses to the contrary have helped create the huge
> bazaar and populated it with the people they employ to create much of the
> Free Software ( Not just GNU ).
> Universal Acceptance will happen when it makes economic sense for
> people/businesses.
> And don't forget Mozilla Project would never have been possible without the
> same non-free businesses.
> The idea should be to convert them not browbeat/kill them.
> > > There is a lot of difference between the two forms of govt. We are
> > > fortunate we are not China.
> >
> > agreed. but also unfortunate we are not taking giant, strategic, and
> > pioneering steps towards freedom-based software like china.
>
> Its the people who do it similar things here in India.
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > >
> > > Lack of clear Govt. Initiative helps Indian Software Industry grow.
> Textile
> > > Industry was an industry that GOI once focused its attention, before
> which
> > > it was so competitive and showed so much promise that the Japanese
> decided
> > > against competing with it. The rest is history.
> >
> > don't you see that it is the government and the governments of the world
> that
> > have created systems or have been manipulated and abused by non-free
> software
> > businesses to cater to their own interests?
> > look at the mess in the US and
> > the EU revolving around all the issues created by decades of decadence by
> the
> > governments towards software.
> So you now want them to extend this mess to FLOSS ????
>
> > [snip]
> >
> > >
> > > How about suggesting a mandatory refund for the cost of un-installing
> and
> > > initiating recovery from the OEM of the cost of unwanted bundled
> Software.
> >
> > too complicated to implement. easier to just tax, forcing market forces to
> > choose whether manufacturers want to bundle anymore. [grin]
> Well the effects would be limited to target segment.
> A few Practical Suggestions :-
>
> 1) OEMs should mention the actual cost they are paying for the software
> bundled and the hardware must be available without the bundled software.
> 2) An easy and mandatory way by law to uninstall and get refunded the full
> cost of the software from Software manufacturer, just the same way as one
> can unsubscribe from a mailing list if one no longer wishes to get e-mail
> from it.
> 3) In any case OEM's are getting a real beating from Grey Market. Let the
> market kill them. The community can help create good hardware
> configurations/software bundles for these players.
>
>
> > [snip]
> > >Why tax
> > > the whole industry for that which will even include the FLOSS compliant
> > > s/w vendors and consultants other harmless beings.
> >
> > reasons stated above. FLOSS software sold for a price, when 100% FLOSS, is
> > marginal, and very low volume. and the option for getting free-of-price
> still
> > exists. meanwhile offering value-added services of any type on
> free-of-price
> > FLOSS will still attract a service tax in india. so no conflict.
> These are all assumptions !!!
> The reality is different.
> Very difficult to implement :-
> FLOSS pays service tax.
> Commercial Software pays Excise.
> Such a situation will increase complexities in proportion to the
> fragmentation of Free Software ( Its all about various choices people are
> making ). And then we may have whole new class of Software Valuers /
> Software Actuaries who will pronounce the value of Software/Service parts
> based on precedents and like quoting from
> various sections/sub-sections/by-laws to deteriment of FLOSS.
>
> > > > 9) Commercial software companies are usually quite rich. Not taxing
> them
> > > > allows them to hoard their wealth even more and give them more
> implicit
> > > > power to quash their competition in commercial software and in
> > > > freedom-based software
> > >
> > > So allow nobody to be rich then, they may quash competition
> > > quash competition by involving govt. !!! NEVER
> >
> > wrong. the objective is to discourage islands of ugly prosperity and power
> > created by killing innovation, competition, etc. i strongly believe the
> > software industry, even when following a 100% Freedom-based model, can
> create
> > immense wealth for a much *larger* number of people and organizations, and
> > even countries, than just the handful who control everything.
> Thats what Soviet Union used to think.
> The real Communism is all but dead.
> Nothing wrong in being rich.
> There will always be such huge differences in incomes with or without FLOSS.
> Because you can download TD-OS for free or you can still get it from my Rs.
> 200 billion TD-FLOSS dev center for a small sum of Rs. 300 million.
> Depending on the application you have for TD-OS you may choose to pay me Rs.
> 300 million. So TD grows rich while LinuxLingum continues to give away free
> TD-OS CDs at TDUG meets every month.
> > [snip]
> >
> > > > 10) by taxing them, the indian government will immediately have more
> > > > powers
> > >
> > > to waste more money,
> > > to not reform the antiquated discretion/quota/
> > > to subsidize the rich
> > > to allow politicians to siphon off more
> >
> > true. thanks for stating the problem. this tax is not aimed at solving
> *all*
> > the ills of our present, contemporary society. just one of them.
> > i invite others to suggest solutions. how about ensuring the government
> > follows a more transparant fund-management system that shows how the
> excise
> > thus collected is being used for FLOSS? and please, do give the government
> > some credit, at least they did not meddle with the indian software exports
> > industry and let it nurture itself to become a significant player in the
> > global market.
>
> Thanks for conceding that. Lets not get govt. to meddle with FLOSS then.
>
> > > govt. money will accelerate vested interests greed not adoption of free
> > > s/w.
> >
> > maybe. how successful or bad this will be can only be found out once its
> > tried.
> > and at least, it will have the desired effect on non-free software,
> > and make people more acutely aware of freedom-based software. it will lead
> > somewhere. better or worse we cannot guarantee.
> Worse given the precendents of Governments around the world messing with
> Technology
> INTERNET and TELECOM.
> > you know tarun, its a little like saying let the british continue ruling
> > india, look what a mess the indian government is making of things.
> Now do you want me write an essay on what a mess the british were making
> here.
> Patriotism is a last refuge don't use it so soon.
>
> > it all depends on how committed we are to freedom in software....
> > {this is the kind of thought that gets Leo Fernandes thinking. hey Leo,
> let's
> > hear your thoughts too}
> >
> >
> > >
> > > FLOSS shouldn't be an dole hungry NGO run by Kurta Pyjama zhola wearing
> > > fanatics. FLOSS should spawn successful companies with sound business
> plans
> > > and good execution to attract freedom lovers.
> >
> > Freedom-based software can attract NGOs, kurta pyjama jhola-gangs,
> successful
> > companies, governments, students, traders, heck! anybody alive can work
> and
> > contribute to freedom-based software their own way, for their own
> objectives.
> > i make no distinction.
> > its a little like saying mathematics must only be the domain of [insert
> your
> > favourite class of people] and [insert those classes you don't like]
> should
> > be banned from even thinking of mathematics.
> >
> > you know, even if microsoft wants to work and contribute towards
> > freedom-based software and its values, i will welcome them with open arms.
> >
> > freedom-based software is for *all* of humanity.
> Point Conceded.
> I was talking about Role Models.
> Success is the idea.
>
> > > Govt. funds will turn the flourishing FLOSS movement into another
> > > Khadi(more likely).
> Yup khadi wasn't a govt. monopoly it was a people's movement.
>
> > please understand the internal development of freedom-based software does
> not
> > rest on the whims of any single government.
>
> But that's what happens when governments jump into something.
>
> > > > 12) the adoption of free and freedom-based software allows indian
> > > > corporates to save considerable sums of money t[snip]
> > >
> > > Let them have the freedom to adopt free software.
> >
> > many don't *really* have the freedom yet. many categories of software
> don't
> > have fully functional, mature, freedom-based alternatives. this initiative
> > will accelerate that.
> Many categories of Software still await FLOSS technological advancement.
> Software that are closed intwined with Proprietory Processes of companies
> will have await the development , successful deployment of FLOSS
> technologies ( the kind that Mozilla Project aimed to produce) which
> seperates this properietory knowledge into schemas, representations that can
> be used by FLOSS softwares to provide solutions.
> Again lets stick to FLOSS and not delve into why others should or should not
> free knowledge to their competitors ( Ethics of Software world may not be
> applicable to other scenarios).
>
> > > Come on now -- Let the educational institutions become self-reliant and
> > > autonomous and not on govt. dole.
> >
> > educational institutions are stuck between the jabs of non-free software
> > businesses and lopsided government policies towards non-free software.
> some
> > independent and private educational institutions run on their own
> greed-based
> > motivations. installing freedom-based software *may* also instill some
> amount
> > of questioning and relook at our value systems. who knows? let's try it!
> There are better ways to help educational institutions than taxing Software
> ( FLOSS or otherwise)
> Help them migrate to FLOSS systems. LAP( a Linux-Delhi project for Linux in
> Education) has laudable objectives.
>
> > > The moral leadership doesn't help us, economic strength will.
> >
> > wrong. moral leadership helped us tremendously in gaining freedom from the
> > british empire. war and bloodshed as displays of strength could have too.
> but
> > imagine at what terrible costs the world would have dismantled the yoke of
> > colonialism.
> Again the TCO concept.
> -- Tampering with Official history --
> If the british had found out a lower cost method to sustain their control
> over India they wouldn't have left.
> The benefits of leaving outweighed the benefits of trying to subdue a
> rebellious populace -- it was not Quit India Movement but the revolt of
> Naval Ratings that was the last straw.
> -- Tampering with Official history --
> -- Predictions for Gulf War in making--
> If the total cost of producing oil from Iraq's Oil Fields in terms of
> American Lives lost and sustaining Oil Production in the midst of hostile
> populace in Iraq. Americans will withdraw from Iraq even at the risk of
> their puppet government which they install after this war ( if it happens )
> falls.
> -- Predictions for Gulf War in making--
>
> > the new millennium, IMHO, is about understanding and appreciating
> technology,
> And not making about making simplistic cause-effect assumptions.
> > science, economics, society, etc, from a pillar of ethics as well. we are
> > already paying heavily in the world for *not* having done that.
> A few questions to let you into the jungle of ethics of FLOSS and
> Vulnerability Information :-
>
> 1. Is it ethical to exploit a known vulnerability in software to steal
> Credit Card numbers ?
> 2. Is it ethical to make the exploit code for this vulnerability known to
> Internet to enable someone to do the above before patches are released by
> vendors and sufficient time allowed to apply and test those patches?
> 3. Is it ethical to make hide this vulnerability from all the whole FLOSS
> community ? Because Vendor Notification before exploit code is released may
> be available to only major FLOSS vendors for that project ?
> What about the forked code's maintainers -- is it ethical that their part of
> the bazaar community suffers from this lack of disclosure ?
> Whitehat vs Blackhat arguments rest on the last two questions what are your
> views on that.
>
> > > Let not the Govt. infringe upon our freedom.
> >
> > and neither the *even more powerful* non-free software businesses.
> Can't we continue to promote FLOSS without labelling all non-free software
> businesses as evil.
> Ethics is a complex business and its too easy to pass judgement.
>
> Tarun Dua
>
> ================================================
> To unsubscribe, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with unsubscribe in subject header.
> Check archives at http://www.mail-archive.com/ilugd%40wpaa.org
>
