> first of all, an excellent response from tarun dua on the draft.
--Thanks LL
> IMHO FLOSS is beyond any mess that any bureaucrat, government, or
> corporate can make.
That is dangerous thinking!!! Look what a mess GOI bureaucrats made with
regard to Internet.
All this coz' of just a few high profile fraudulent DNR squatting cases
1. The Indian Domain Name Registration business was killed by who else but
bureaucrats from GOI.
It costs me less to register a .com or a .net domain than a .co.in domain
because of the high
Total Cost of acquisition of Indian domains. There is no Indian whois ( a
premier research institute was one of them which was entrusted with the task
of maintaining the whois information, but all of them fail to fulfill their
responsibility) and so do the commercial DNR organizations. I am itched
because we can't use a standard way to find out about abuse information
indian domains. ( Correct me -- I may be wrong )
The country specific TLD .in would have minted money for GOI in the form of
royalty if it was an easy DNR process. Because people arount the world
would have bought DN's like "come.in" "go.in" and so on by millions(look at
the existing number of .com's , .biz etc)
Typically government would make it mandatory to ask you questions like
these for providing a DN to you
(WARN: these questions are similar not same as the ones that are/would
be/being asked when you want to get a Indian DN .ind.in -- for individuals)
When were you born ? Why were you born ? Are you sure you are born
yet i.e. show us your birth certificate ? Get 6 copies of the form attested
from Zila Tehsi.... and whatever ?
Ditto for various other types of DNs.
2. Look at the early experimental Networks ( ernets, nicnets etc. etc.. )
how well they are serving the needs of our educational Institutions
3. Look at the Telecom mess that also affected the growth of ISP's -- One
result is the ISP's in India still don't have much incentive to interconnect
with one another and still find it easier to route packets to one another
through US based backbones.
4. Internet -- the empowerment-knowledge-freedom it provides is still a
mirage to our bandwidth starved country because of difficult laws made by
some really clueless people.
< Not Ranting about Cyberlaws around the world for now >
> the only mess that happens in the FLOSS world, happens
> from *within* the FLOSS community. it is quite immune and insular to the
> *outside* world. which is why it is so successful despite governments,
> despite ruthless corporates, and despite no understanding or awareness of
it
> in the outside world, which is quite paradoxical.
FLOSS community is not insular -- rather it is pervasive.
It is not despite but because of ruthless corporates that it thrives.
> why? becuase the FLOSS model is of the cathedral and the bazaar.
Its the "bazaar model" .
> [snip]
>
> > Asking the government funds for FLOSS will kill FLOSS,
> > why ??
> > i) We do not want some politician's son/daughter would be the
> > maintainer for India specific FLOSS projects.
>
> the greatness of the cathedral and bazaar model, is that despite even such
a
> horrendous scenario, the madness of the model will ensure its success.
people
> will fork, people will work, FLOSS *ensures* meritocracy, and the
bureaucracy
> despite any thing cannot change that fundamental truth. let them try. i'd
> love to see them fall.
So why push them to try what they are going to mess with in any case.
Consider the following scenarios.
1. FLOSS has funding available to GOI sponsered project ( now this the
Official GOI-FLOSS project ).
The way the government works . This gets entered into the list of approved
vendors/lists/ and huge number of paper databases all over the country in
Educational Institutions.
Now the poor developers from all over contribute code to a semi-govt. org.
which makes a mess of it.
Even if Linuxlingam decides to fork it. The govt. departments who merely
follow the written word in toto without
applying an iota of intelligence more to fulfill the rules than for a
purpose will use the same project from the GOI-FLOSS thus working to curtail
freedom not increase it.
2. FLOSS funding is cornered by elite institutions , research institutions
who don't understand what is a bazaar -- they make cathedrals out of it.
3. FLOSS funding starts to get channeled by GOI agencies for NGO's--- FLOSS
becomes an epitome of corruption in India-- Corporate funding dries up.
FLOSS is dead.
These are only a few scenarios I can cook up being a mere outsider --- what
will actually happen when India babu goes into floss is "Gawd Knows"
Then these are only economic consequences -- if we have a couple of lenthy
laws much worse can happen to the nascent FLOSS Industry.
> > ii) We do not want FLOSS project grants to be given away to the
> > hopelessly inefficient govt. of India Research and Development Centers
> > and siphoned off from there to I don't know where.
>
> i propose the government creates FLOSS projects hosted on savannah,
sarovar,
> attracting intelligent minds.
>
> incidentally, the real reason to tax, is to discourage OEM bundling, and
to
> level the playing ground for those who are thus barred from competing,
> especially FLOSS.
> taxing also will have a similar impact on off-the-shelf commercial
non-free
> software.
> plus, given the taxation, people may want to actively explore FLOSS. And
> FLOSS is not, and can not be owned by the INdian government. No
government,
> no organisation, can own freedom-based software.
> everybody owns freedom-based software.
> if you understand this, you will realize the indian government can only
> support its creation and no matter how inept it may be, the process will
> create something of high-quality towards world culture heritage.
>
> > iii) Govt. of India is a collection of vested Interests influenced
> > by unscrupulous businesses and what not
>
> aren't some of those businesses probably some of these commercial,
non-free
> software companies? won't asking the government to tax them dilute this
> vested interest? all the more reason, i think. what do others at
linux-delhi
> think?
Fortunately much of Indian Software Industry ( At least the big
corporations ) will come out clean on this.
The pioneers of this Industry have proved themselves to be above board.
Cheers !!!
> [snip]
> > How does the government define Commercial.
> > FLOSS doesn't mean free as in Beer but Free as in Freedom.
> i know this is controversial, but even taxing FLOSS sold for a price will
> work. again, it emphasizes to people they can get free-of-price FLOSS if
they
> wish. and if they are willing to pay a price, then the government taxes to
> further use that money for accelerated development and adoption.
Another Scenario:-
FLOSS will have to unbundle the associated services and pay service tax.
Opens a pandora box.
Bureaucratic busy bodies too will assume things are not fluid and fix up
things should happen in this particular way and one find oneself filing
FLOSS FORM-XXXA(IX) for proving that this component is service and that is
software and that I din't write this component but I have to sell it and
sorts of convoluted things like undertakings on free/non-free portions and
even why TD-OS costs Rs. xxx and you give it away for free -- are you
laundering money, or why TD-OS package pays service tax while you want us
charge M$ excise.
Debates - like mobility vs limited moblity -- what is a circle will erupt
in software industry ( and with government involvement) too.
> by the way, FLOSS when sold for a price is usually inexpensive. do note
that
> when some FLOSS-driven sale is huge in price, it means lurking within the
> soup must be some non-free software....
>
> besides, providing services such as training, consulting, etc., even on
Free
> and freedom-based software, is gonna attract a service tax, according to
the
> new budget proposal.
>
>
> [snip]
> >
> > So noble who are we to decide about the best interests of all Indian
> > Corporates and Government Give them Freedom to Choose thats where our
role
> > ends. They are Free Not to be Free if they desire so.
>
> Wrong. They cannot be free even when they want to be, thanks to the tight
> grip of non-free software. taxing discourages that grip, accelerates
adoption
> and development of freedom-based software, and gives people a
level-playing
> ground to *really* choose between being free and not being free, if they
> desire.
Taxing doesn't discourage but increases clamour of various Lobbies, Special
Interest Groups, for a huge
number of complex exemptions etc which will ultimately reduce the collective
strength of the Free/OSS community which is very fragmented.
Not does it make you look towards free alternatives where none exist due to
the small size of the bazaar.
> > > 2) Almost all commercial software are non-free. This means, they do
not
>
> [snip]
>
> i make a strong distinction between mere open-source' software, and
> freedom-based software. when a software guarantees *all* the freedoms
> mentioned earlier, it is freedom-based.
So we may have TD-Ransom license ( which was/would/will be released under
FDL) competing with GPL to get government attention for the TAX concessions.
How long will a "Linuxlingum Committee" on Software Tax Reforms take to come
out with its findings ( by which time technology will have changed the
ethics/clean seperations of the Software/FLOSS world out of recognition).
> > We are a democratic country not a free country, do not harbor any
> > illusions (period)
>
> agreed. i wish to ensure we remain a democratic country which is not under
> the tyranny of strong, powerful, non-free software business interests. we
are
> gradually losing the right to vote for freedom-based software even in
> schools, for instance. democracy is of the people, by the people, for the
> people. simiarly, freedom-based software is of the people, by the people,
for
> the people. i see no conflict, only synergy in a democratic country
adopting
> freedom-based software.
I never said that a democratic country shouldn't adopt free software, but
let its free people decide to choose it
rather than a government forcing it.
The writ of our government is only used to browbeat honest
businesses/salaried professionals into submission.
Anything suggested by government will end in failure like so many other
laws( we have too many ) which have been worked around with the connivance
of corrupt people who man it.
> [snip]
>
> > > 4) these freedoms also significantly curtail strong anti-competitive
> > > behaviour in the software industry.
> >
> > They will do so without any form of overt Govt. Support as well.
>
> more than the support for FLOSS, it is the sort of 'penalizing' non-free
> software that is important.
>
> look, non-free software businesses make billions of dollars, without
having
> to even pay taxes for it, and hoard the wealth. and they have created huge
> barriers for freedom-based software, else given that gnu was founded in
the
> mid-eighties, its universal acceptance would have happened decades ago.
Non-free software businesses to the contrary have helped create the huge
bazaar and populated it with the people they employ to create much of the
Free Software ( Not just GNU ).
Universal Acceptance will happen when it makes economic sense for
people/businesses.
And don't forget Mozilla Project would never have been possible without the
same non-free businesses.
The idea should be to convert them not browbeat/kill them.
> > There is a lot of difference between the two forms of govt. We are
> > fortunate we are not China.
>
> agreed. but also unfortunate we are not taking giant, strategic, and
> pioneering steps towards freedom-based software like china.
Its the people who do it similar things here in India.
> [snip]
>
> >
> > Lack of clear Govt. Initiative helps Indian Software Industry grow.
Textile
> > Industry was an industry that GOI once focused its attention, before
which
> > it was so competitive and showed so much promise that the Japanese
decided
> > against competing with it. The rest is history.
>
> don't you see that it is the government and the governments of the world
that
> have created systems or have been manipulated and abused by non-free
software
> businesses to cater to their own interests?
> look at the mess in the US and
> the EU revolving around all the issues created by decades of decadence by
the
> governments towards software.
So you now want them to extend this mess to FLOSS ????
> [snip]
>
> >
> > How about suggesting a mandatory refund for the cost of un-installing
and
> > initiating recovery from the OEM of the cost of unwanted bundled
Software.
>
> too complicated to implement. easier to just tax, forcing market forces to
> choose whether manufacturers want to bundle anymore. [grin]
Well the effects would be limited to target segment.
A few Practical Suggestions :-
1) OEMs should mention the actual cost they are paying for the software
bundled and the hardware must be available without the bundled software.
2) An easy and mandatory way by law to uninstall and get refunded the full
cost of the software from Software manufacturer, just the same way as one
can unsubscribe from a mailing list if one no longer wishes to get e-mail
from it.
3) In any case OEM's are getting a real beating from Grey Market. Let the
market kill them. The community can help create good hardware
configurations/software bundles for these players.
> [snip]
> >Why tax
> > the whole industry for that which will even include the FLOSS compliant
> > s/w vendors and consultants other harmless beings.
>
> reasons stated above. FLOSS software sold for a price, when 100% FLOSS, is
> marginal, and very low volume. and the option for getting free-of-price
still
> exists. meanwhile offering value-added services of any type on
free-of-price
> FLOSS will still attract a service tax in india. so no conflict.
These are all assumptions !!!
The reality is different.
Very difficult to implement :-
FLOSS pays service tax.
Commercial Software pays Excise.
Such a situation will increase complexities in proportion to the
fragmentation of Free Software ( Its all about various choices people are
making ). And then we may have whole new class of Software Valuers /
Software Actuaries who will pronounce the value of Software/Service parts
based on precedents and like quoting from
various sections/sub-sections/by-laws to deteriment of FLOSS.
> > > 9) Commercial software companies are usually quite rich. Not taxing
them
> > > allows them to hoard their wealth even more and give them more
implicit
> > > power to quash their competition in commercial software and in
> > > freedom-based software
> >
> > So allow nobody to be rich then, they may quash competition
> > quash competition by involving govt. !!! NEVER
>
> wrong. the objective is to discourage islands of ugly prosperity and power
> created by killing innovation, competition, etc. i strongly believe the
> software industry, even when following a 100% Freedom-based model, can
create
> immense wealth for a much *larger* number of people and organizations, and
> even countries, than just the handful who control everything.
Thats what Soviet Union used to think.
The real Communism is all but dead.
Nothing wrong in being rich.
There will always be such huge differences in incomes with or without FLOSS.
Because you can download TD-OS for free or you can still get it from my Rs.
200 billion TD-FLOSS dev center for a small sum of Rs. 300 million.
Depending on the application you have for TD-OS you may choose to pay me Rs.
300 million. So TD grows rich while LinuxLingum continues to give away free
TD-OS CDs at TDUG meets every month.
> [snip]
>
> > > 10) by taxing them, the indian government will immediately have more
> > > powers
> >
> > to waste more money,
> > to not reform the antiquated discretion/quota/
> > to subsidize the rich
> > to allow politicians to siphon off more
>
> true. thanks for stating the problem. this tax is not aimed at solving
*all*
> the ills of our present, contemporary society. just one of them.
> i invite others to suggest solutions. how about ensuring the government
> follows a more transparant fund-management system that shows how the
excise
> thus collected is being used for FLOSS? and please, do give the government
> some credit, at least they did not meddle with the indian software exports
> industry and let it nurture itself to become a significant player in the
> global market.
Thanks for conceding that. Lets not get govt. to meddle with FLOSS then.
> > govt. money will accelerate vested interests greed not adoption of free
> > s/w.
>
> maybe. how successful or bad this will be can only be found out once its
> tried.
> and at least, it will have the desired effect on non-free software,
> and make people more acutely aware of freedom-based software. it will lead
> somewhere. better or worse we cannot guarantee.
Worse given the precendents of Governments around the world messing with
Technology
INTERNET and TELECOM.
> you know tarun, its a little like saying let the british continue ruling
> india, look what a mess the indian government is making of things.
Now do you want me write an essay on what a mess the british were making
here.
Patriotism is a last refuge don't use it so soon.
> it all depends on how committed we are to freedom in software....
> {this is the kind of thought that gets Leo Fernandes thinking. hey Leo,
let's
> hear your thoughts too}
>
>
> >
> > FLOSS shouldn't be an dole hungry NGO run by Kurta Pyjama zhola wearing
> > fanatics. FLOSS should spawn successful companies with sound business
plans
> > and good execution to attract freedom lovers.
>
> Freedom-based software can attract NGOs, kurta pyjama jhola-gangs,
successful
> companies, governments, students, traders, heck! anybody alive can work
and
> contribute to freedom-based software their own way, for their own
objectives.
> i make no distinction.
> its a little like saying mathematics must only be the domain of [insert
your
> favourite class of people] and [insert those classes you don't like]
should
> be banned from even thinking of mathematics.
>
> you know, even if microsoft wants to work and contribute towards
> freedom-based software and its values, i will welcome them with open arms.
>
> freedom-based software is for *all* of humanity.
Point Conceded.
I was talking about Role Models.
Success is the idea.
> > Govt. funds will turn the flourishing FLOSS movement into another
> > Khadi(more likely).
Yup khadi wasn't a govt. monopoly it was a people's movement.
> please understand the internal development of freedom-based software does
not
> rest on the whims of any single government.
But that's what happens when governments jump into something.
> > > 12) the adoption of free and freedom-based software allows indian
> > > corporates to save considerable sums of money t[snip]
> >
> > Let them have the freedom to adopt free software.
>
> many don't *really* have the freedom yet. many categories of software
don't
> have fully functional, mature, freedom-based alternatives. this initiative
> will accelerate that.
Many categories of Software still await FLOSS technological advancement.
Software that are closed intwined with Proprietory Processes of companies
will have await the development , successful deployment of FLOSS
technologies ( the kind that Mozilla Project aimed to produce) which
seperates this properietory knowledge into schemas, representations that can
be used by FLOSS softwares to provide solutions.
Again lets stick to FLOSS and not delve into why others should or should not
free knowledge to their competitors ( Ethics of Software world may not be
applicable to other scenarios).
> > Come on now -- Let the educational institutions become self-reliant and
> > autonomous and not on govt. dole.
>
> educational institutions are stuck between the jabs of non-free software
> businesses and lopsided government policies towards non-free software.
some
> independent and private educational institutions run on their own
greed-based
> motivations. installing freedom-based software *may* also instill some
amount
> of questioning and relook at our value systems. who knows? let's try it!
There are better ways to help educational institutions than taxing Software
( FLOSS or otherwise)
Help them migrate to FLOSS systems. LAP( a Linux-Delhi project for Linux in
Education) has laudable objectives.
> > The moral leadership doesn't help us, economic strength will.
>
> wrong. moral leadership helped us tremendously in gaining freedom from the
> british empire. war and bloodshed as displays of strength could have too.
but
> imagine at what terrible costs the world would have dismantled the yoke of
> colonialism.
Again the TCO concept.
-- Tampering with Official history --
If the british had found out a lower cost method to sustain their control
over India they wouldn't have left.
The benefits of leaving outweighed the benefits of trying to subdue a
rebellious populace -- it was not Quit India Movement but the revolt of
Naval Ratings that was the last straw.
-- Tampering with Official history --
-- Predictions for Gulf War in making--
If the total cost of producing oil from Iraq's Oil Fields in terms of
American Lives lost and sustaining Oil Production in the midst of hostile
populace in Iraq. Americans will withdraw from Iraq even at the risk of
their puppet government which they install after this war ( if it happens )
falls.
-- Predictions for Gulf War in making--
> the new millennium, IMHO, is about understanding and appreciating
technology,
And not making about making simplistic cause-effect assumptions.
> science, economics, society, etc, from a pillar of ethics as well. we are
> already paying heavily in the world for *not* having done that.
A few questions to let you into the jungle of ethics of FLOSS and
Vulnerability Information :-
1. Is it ethical to exploit a known vulnerability in software to steal
Credit Card numbers ?
2. Is it ethical to make the exploit code for this vulnerability known to
Internet to enable someone to do the above before patches are released by
vendors and sufficient time allowed to apply and test those patches?
3. Is it ethical to make hide this vulnerability from all the whole FLOSS
community ? Because Vendor Notification before exploit code is released may
be available to only major FLOSS vendors for that project ?
What about the forked code's maintainers -- is it ethical that their part of
the bazaar community suffers from this lack of disclosure ?
Whitehat vs Blackhat arguments rest on the last two questions what are your
views on that.
> > Let not the Govt. infringe upon our freedom.
>
> and neither the *even more powerful* non-free software businesses.
Can't we continue to promote FLOSS without labelling all non-free software
businesses as evil.
Ethics is a complex business and its too easy to pass judgement.
Tarun Dua
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