On Friday 07 March 2003 07:21 pm, you wrote:
> An Opinion :-
>
first of all, an excellent response from tarun dua on the draft.
looking forward to more intense discussions on this topic by others in
linux-delhi. eager to see to what this churning leads.
short and quick responses to tarun's insights:
[snip]
> The tax concessions on Commercial Software will hurt free software
> sellers as well.
> how??
> The bureaucrats who do not understand a thing about what is
> FLOSS/Freedom/OSS and the like will make a mess.I trust them with that.
IMHO FLOSS is beyond any mess that any bureaucrat, government, or
corporate can make. the only mess that happens in the FLOSS world, happens
from *within* the FLOSS community. it is quite immune and insular to the
*outside* world. which is why it is so successful despite governments,
despite ruthless corporates, and despite no understanding or awareness of it
in the outside world, which is quite paradoxical.
why? becuase the FLOSS model is of the cathedral and the bazaar.
[snip]
> Asking the government funds for FLOSS will kill FLOSS,
> why ??
> i) We do not want some politician's son/daughter would be the
> maintainer for India specific FLOSS projects.
the greatness of the cathedral and bazaar model, is that despite even such a
horrendous scenario, the madness of the model will ensure its success. people
will fork, people will work, FLOSS *ensures* meritocracy, and the bureaucracy
despite any thing cannot change that fundamental truth. let them try. i'd
love to see them fall.
> ii) We do not want FLOSS project grants to be given away to the
> hopelessly inefficient govt. of India Research and Development Centers
> and siphoned off from there to I don't know where.
i propose the government creates FLOSS projects hosted on savannah, sarovar,
attracting intelligent minds.
incidentally, the real reason to tax, is to discourage OEM bundling, and to
level the playing ground for those who are thus barred from competing,
especially FLOSS.
taxing also will have a similar impact on off-the-shelf commercial non-free
software.
plus, given the taxation, people may want to actively explore FLOSS. And
FLOSS is not, and can not be owned by the INdian government. No government,
no organisation, can own freedom-based software.
everybody owns freedom-based software.
if you understand this, you will realize the indian government can only
support its creation and no matter how inept it may be, the process will
create something of high-quality towards world culture heritage.
> iii) Govt. of India is a collection of vested Interests influenced
> by unscrupulous businesses and what not
aren't some of those businesses probably some of these commercial, non-free
software companies? won't asking the government to tax them dilute this
vested interest? all the more reason, i think. what do others at linux-delhi
think?
[snip]
> How does the government define Commercial.
> FLOSS doesn't mean free as in Beer but Free as in Freedom.
i know this is controversial, but even taxing FLOSS sold for a price will
work. again, it emphasizes to people they can get free-of-price FLOSS if they
wish. and if they are willing to pay a price, then the government taxes to
further use that money for accelerated development and adoption.
by the way, FLOSS when sold for a price is usually inexpensive. do note that
when some FLOSS-driven sale is huge in price, it means lurking within the
soup must be some non-free software....
besides, providing services such as training, consulting, etc., even on Free
and freedom-based software, is gonna attract a service tax, according to the
new budget proposal.
[snip]
>
> So noble who are we to decide about the best interests of all Indian
> Corporates and Government Give them Freedom to Choose thats where our role
> ends. They are Free Not to be Free if they desire so.
Wrong. They cannot be free even when they want to be, thanks to the tight
grip of non-free software. taxing discourages that grip, accelerates adoption
and development of freedom-based software, and gives people a level-playing
ground to *really* choose between being free and not being free, if they
desire.
>
> > 2) Almost all commercial software are non-free. This means, they do not
[snip]
i make a strong distinction between mere open-source' software, and
freedom-based software. when a software guarantees *all* the freedoms
mentioned earlier, it is freedom-based.
>
> We are a democratic country not a free country, do not harbor any
> illusions (period)
agreed. i wish to ensure we remain a democratic country which is not under
the tyranny of strong, powerful, non-free software business interests. we are
gradually losing the right to vote for freedom-based software even in
schools, for instance. democracy is of the people, by the people, for the
people. simiarly, freedom-based software is of the people, by the people, for
the people. i see no conflict, only synergy in a democratic country adopting
freedom-based software.
[snip]
> > 4) these freedoms also significantly curtail strong anti-competitive
> > behaviour in the software industry.
>
> They will do so without any form of overt Govt. Support as well.
more than the support for FLOSS, it is the sort of 'penalizing' non-free
software that is important.
look, non-free software businesses make billions of dollars, without having
to even pay taxes for it, and hoard the wealth. and they have created huge
barriers for freedom-based software, else given that gnu was founded in the
mid-eighties, its universal acceptance would have happened decades ago.
>
> There is a lot of difference between the two forms of govt. We are
> fortunate we are not China.
agreed. but also unfortunate we are not taking giant, strategic, and
pioneering steps towards freedom-based software like china.
[snip]
>
> Lack of clear Govt. Initiative helps Indian Software Industry grow. Textile
> Industry was an industry that GOI once focused its attention, before which
> it was so competitive and showed so much promise that the Japanese decided
> against competing with it. The rest is history.
don't you see that it is the government and the governments of the world that
have created systems or have been manipulated and abused by non-free software
businesses to cater to their own interests? look at the mess in the US and
the EU revolving around all the issues created by decades of decadence by the
governments towards software.
[snip]
>
> How about suggesting a mandatory refund for the cost of un-installing and
> initiating recovery from the OEM of the cost of unwanted bundled Software.
too complicated to implement. easier to just tax, forcing market forces to
choose whether manufacturers want to bundle anymore. [grin]
[snip]
>Why tax
> the whole industry for that which will even include the FLOSS compliant
> s/w vendors and consultants other harmless beings.
reasons stated above. FLOSS software sold for a price, when 100% FLOSS, is
marginal, and very low volume. and the option for getting free-of-price still
exists. meanwhile offering value-added services of any type on free-of-price
FLOSS will still attract a service tax in india. so no conflict.
>
> > 9) Commercial software companies are usually quite rich. Not taxing them
> > allows them to hoard their wealth even more and give them more implicit
> > power to quash their competition in commercial software and in
> > freedom-based software
>
> So allow nobody to be rich then, they may quash competition
> quash competition by involving govt. !!! NEVER
wrong. the objective is to discourage islands of ugly prosperity and power
created by killing innovation, competition, etc. i strongly believe the
software industry, even when following a 100% Freedom-based model, can create
immense wealth for a much *larger* number of people and organizations, and
even countries, than just the handful who control everything.
[snip]
> > 10) by taxing them, the indian government will immediately have more
> > powers
>
> to waste more money,
> to not reform the antiquated discretion/quota/
> to subsidize the rich
> to allow politicians to siphon off more
true. thanks for stating the problem. this tax is not aimed at solving *all*
the ills of our present, contemporary society. just one of them.
i invite others to suggest solutions. how about ensuring the government
follows a more transparant fund-management system that shows how the excise
thus collected is being used for FLOSS? and please, do give the government
some credit, at least they did not meddle with the indian software exports
industry and let it nurture itself to become a significant player in the
global market.
> govt. money will accelerate vested interests greed not adoption of free
> s/w.
maybe. how successful or bad this will be can only be found out once its
tried. and at least, it will have the desired effect on non-free software,
and make people more acutely aware of freedom-based software. it will lead
somewhere. better or worse we cannot guarantee.
you know tarun, its a little like saying let the british continue ruling
india, look what a mess the indian government is making of things.
it all depends on how committed we are to freedom in software....
{this is the kind of thought that gets Leo Fernandes thinking. hey Leo, let's
hear your thoughts too}
>
> FLOSS shouldn't be an dole hungry NGO run by Kurta Pyjama zhola wearing
> fanatics. FLOSS should spawn successful companies with sound business plans
> and good execution to attract freedom lovers.
Freedom-based software can attract NGOs, kurta pyjama jhola-gangs, successful
companies, governments, students, traders, heck! anybody alive can work and
contribute to freedom-based software their own way, for their own objectives.
i make no distinction.
its a little like saying mathematics must only be the domain of [insert your
favourite class of people] and [insert those classes you don't like] should
be banned from even thinking of mathematics.
you know, even if microsoft wants to work and contribute towards
freedom-based software and its values, i will welcome them with open arms.
freedom-based software is for *all* of humanity.
> Govt. funds will turn the flourishing FLOSS movement into another
> Khadi(more likely).
please understand the internal development of freedom-based software does not
rest on the whims of any single government.
>
> > 12) the adoption of free and freedom-based software allows indian
> > corporates to save considerable sums of money t[snip]
>
> Let them have the freedom to adopt free software.
many don't *really* have the freedom yet. many categories of software don't
have fully functional, mature, freedom-based alternatives. this initiative
will accelerate that.
> Come on now -- Let the educational institutions become self-reliant and
> autonomous and not on govt. dole.
educational institutions are stuck between the jabs of non-free software
businesses and lopsided government policies towards non-free software. some
independent and private educational institutions run on their own greed-based
motivations. installing freedom-based software *may* also instill some amount
of questioning and relook at our value systems. who knows? let's try it!
> The moral leadership doesn't help us, economic strength will.
wrong. moral leadership helped us tremendously in gaining freedom from the
british empire. war and bloodshed as displays of strength could have too. but
imagine at what terrible costs the world would have dismantled the yoke of
colonialism.
the new millennium, IMHO, is about understanding and appreciating technology,
science, economics, society, etc, from a pillar of ethics as well. we are
already paying heavily in the world for *not* having done that.
>[snip]
>
> Let not the Govt. infringe upon our freedom.
and neither the *even more powerful* non-free software businesses.
tarun, thanks for your excellent response. hope this fuels the discussion
further so we have a much refined document to sign and submit to the indian
government.
:-)
LL
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