Taylan, thank you for the thoughtful response and to listening to what I said. It's too close to bedtime for me to be able to respond coherently, but I will do so tomorrow. Just wanted to leave this hear in the meanwhile so it was clear you were heard.
- Christine Taylan Kammer <taylan.kam...@gmail.com> writes: > Hi Christine, > > Thank you for opening up. It was definitely not apparent to me that you > had such a reaction to the thread. As we know, text doesn't convey the > nuances of human communication very well, and I had read your initial > emails as rather relaxed, or at worst mildly annoyed. Had I realized > that they were coming from such a stressful position, I would have > responded differently. > > My heartfelt apologies in that regard. > > For us to be able to build up better mutual understanding and empathy in > the future, perhaps it would be good for me to open up about some things > as well. > > --- > > Frankly, I think we're more similar than anyone taking a glance at the > thread might ever think. I've had experiences with gender dysphoria as > well, and my dis-identification with male peers has certainly played an > important role in the development of my severe chronic depression. > > I'm a rather reserved person when it comes to personal matters, not as > open about my feelings as you are (and good on you -- it's not doing me > much good to be the way I am in that regard), so I don't want to go into > too much detail, but let's just say I've had multiple near-death moments > throughout the years in relation to my condition, and the latest bout of > severe suicidal thoughts was just a few months ago. > > The partly hostile responses (from others, not you!) I've received in > the thread have been anything but pleasant, to say the least, but have > not led to a major breakdown, perhaps thanks to the medication I'm on, > which might be why I was able to respond a few more times... > > I've packaged higan for Guix, back in 2015. Near (then byuu) helped me > revitalize some of my fondest childhood memories with the emulator he's > built. After taking some interest in the program's workings, I was also > briefly active on his web forum, and had positive interactions with him. > We weren't close personally, but I had built up a *lot* of fondness and > respect for him. The news of his suicide was absolutely awful to me. > > Moreover, a certain web forum that shall not be named which was behind > the bullying campaign against Near/byuu (and countless others) also has > a "profile" of sorts written up on me in one of their threads, as a > potential future bullying target or something. So far I've been spared, > but they do have my home address, and my employer's details are a web > search away. > > All of which is to say, I *deeply* empathize with your position, and at > no point would I ever wish to inflict this type of pain on anyone. > > I would like to sincerely reassure you that the sole purpose in sending > the patch, and subsequent messages, was to pledge for another view to be > respected on equal regard to the one that's already correctly respected. > > The reason I've felt strongly about that, pressing me to reiterate the > position in the subsequent thread by Zimoun, was of course not some > twisted wish to cause hurt. Rather, it was because that perspective is > based on the experiences of countless AFAB people who have been hurt in > countless ways, just like the perspective that is currently rightfully > encoded in the CoC is based on the experiences of trans people. (I've > also found the sex-based perspective to have strong explanatory power > w.r.t. my personal problems, although I've come to see that as almost > irrelevant in the face of everything else I've learned.) > > --- > > There's one thing I've not been able to understand. I don't know if you > wish to respond any further, but if so, please note that the following > is a completely genuine inquiry, and not meant in any confrontational > manner at all, just like the rest of this email. I think it would be > very helpful for the future if you could help me with this: > > The key reason the thread / my mails have caused hurt seems to be that > they've come across as an attempt to debate transgender experiences. > What I've not been able to understand is how that happened, since I > actually tried very hard from the beginning to make it as clear as > possible that I had no such intention. > > For example, I had said things like: > > "I can assure you that I'm 100% fine with the CoC mentioning gender > identity and, for example, if someone were to make inflammatory > remarks towards the worldview of transgender people in this community, > I wouldn't hesitate opposing that." > > And in the summary: > > "I sincerely have no issue with the CoC protecting people based on > gender identity or other transgender status, and am equally > disinterested as others in having debates about that topic." > > Yet something seems to have gone wrong. > > There was one email, my response to Liliana, in which I've touched on > the debate itself, but that was even before your emails so I don't > think it was that... > > Reading over my mails, I just don't understand why they might have been > misunderstood so badly. If you could shed some light on that, I would be > very grateful! It would certainly help me avoid mistakes in the future, > if I were to talk about these matters in a different place. > > > I hope this message reaches you in the empathetic way it's meant. I've > decided to sacrifice about half a night's sleep to write it, because it > was certainly important enough for that. Well, I probably wouldn't have > been able to sleep anyway. :-) > > Kindly, > > Taylan > > > On 25.02.2022 20:42, Christine Lemmer-Webber wrote: >> Taylan, I respect you and your work. I don't think you realize how much >> hurt you've caused here, and I want to take your contributions at good >> faith. But this has continued for days and it has definitely hurt a >> lot. >> >> I just got out of a presentation that I've been in crunchmode preparing >> for all week. It was a technically intense presentation with a demo >> that required a lot of engineering effort to get there. I was stressed >> enough. But the demo went well. Everyone was excited, including me. >> >> I got off the call, and normally what I would feel after something ended >> like that was relief. But I didn't feel relieved. I felt... tired. >> >> And then I started crying uncontrollably for over an hour. Because the >> pressure of the presentation was so great that I had to push down and >> push down all the feelings I had about what was happening on this >> thread, but when it was over, they overflowed. >> >> And I don't believe, I don't want to believe, you meant to cause harm or >> hurt. You have several messages recently clearly indicating that you >> feel you have been accused of things. This is not an accusation. This >> is an appeal to empathy. >> >> Normally I would have left this be quiet, or send an email one-on-one, >> when things reached this stage. But I tried to help this conversation >> end in quiet, and it hasn't happened, and it's been days. So I'm >> relaying my experiences here. >> >> Taylan Kammer <taylan.kam...@gmail.com> writes: >> >>> On 24.02.2022 14:21, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote: >>>> >>>>> I suspect you haven't properly read any of my mails and jumped to >>>>> conclusions >>>>> based on a quick skim, or something like that. >>>> >>>> Well, I've been reading them and some people told you to stop and you still >>>> continue. People already told you were bothering them. >>> >>> I haven't posted anything after Andy and Oliver asked to take it off-list, >>> other than responding to Blake's accusation of course. >>> >>> Before that, nobody told me to stop or that I was bothering them, unless I >>> missed it? >> >> I did... >> >> And maybe you missed it, but I definitely did. I *definitely* did. >> This was on Monday, it is now Friday. Here's what I said across my >> two emails: >> >> - I had already expressed that my very first reaction was wanting to >> support broader language but NOT to have a debate about trans experiences: >> >> > My first thought when looking at the top of this thread was, >> > 'well I would be okay with adding a word if it isn't an *entry point* >> > for debating trans experiences on list' but it looks like it's likely >> > to be so >> >> - And then I said that, as a person affected, I didn't feel comfortable >> debating these topics on a technical mailing list: >> >> > I'm a transwoman with intersex characteristics. I've certainly >> > read a ton about sexual and gender therory, have read plenty of >> > books on it and I can say without a doubt that I really just don't >> > feel comfortable debating these topics on a technical mailing list. >> >> - And then, when I saw your email where you had pulled back, I tried >> to help everything close in a way that was friendly: >> >> > Ah okay, hadn't seen this post before I replied. >> > >> > It seems the issue is closed then. Look forward to everyone getting >> > back to hacking. :) >> >> Shortly thereafter I stepped away from my computer and went downstairs >> and went downstairs to prepare lunch. Morgan, my wife (who is also a >> Guix user, btw) said, "Are you okay? You look stressed." >> >> And I relayed what happened on this thread. >> >> "Is *that* what's being debated on this list? I'm not a Guix >> *developer*, but I am a Guix *user*. That kind of gender essentialism >> makes me both really want to join the mailing list so I can weigh in >> and really *not* want to have to weigh in because I don't want to have >> to deal with all that. That's not the kind of community I want to >> participate in." >> >> We co-presented at the FOSDEM room together in the "Lisp but Beautiful, >> Lisp for Everyone" talk. A major portion of the talk was about Guix. >> Another major portion of the talk (since "who's representing feminism" >> keeps coming up) was about Morgan's experiences *writing her >> dissertation using a markup language which is secretly a lisp dialect* >> on "Women and Wool Working in Ancient Rome". Her PhD, Masters, Major, >> and Minor were all embedded in gender and sexual analysis through the >> lived experiences of women, primarily cisgender, throughout history. >> No matter how many books you and I have read on gender and sexuality, >> I can guarantee you Morgan has read more. >> >> Anyway if there are any other cisgender women who have presented about >> Guix in a video presentation I would be pleased, but as far as I know, >> she's the only one I've seen do so. Corrections extremely welcome. >> Active steps to pull more women into our community, strongly encouraged. >> >> But at the time I said, "Oh, I think it wrapped up. The person who >> raised it backpedaled and I tried to be friendly in softening the >> closing by saying 'cool let's all get back to hacking!' so I don't think >> we have to worry about it anymore. >> >> And then we had lunch, and I thought it was over. >> >> Imagine my surprise went I sent what I had thought were three very >> clear, but polite, signals asking to not debate over the the experiences >> of transgender people on this list, one of which was a friendly >> acknowledgement that it was over from the person who raised it. But the >> most uncomfortable thing for me was that the reply first thanked me for >> being polite about things, but used it as an *opening* for *another* >> entry point about that. >> >> Can you imagine how that feels? How that looks? >> >> And then it continued for an entire week. >> >> Here I'll say something I haven't said previously: I did not come out as >> transgender for a long time because I was *afraid* to come out as >> transgender. Maybe you know, it's a popular past-time on the internet >> right now to bully prominent trans technologists into suicide as a kind >> of game. Here are two examples: >> >> >> https://www.destructoid.com/transgender-dolphin-emulator-developer-dead-age-23/ >> >> https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known-as-near-has-d-1847182851 >> >> I currently consider suicide by online bullying to be my highest >> mortality risk factor. Having a community where I feel safe, it's not a >> small thing. The Guix community has felt like one of the nicest, safest >> places in FOSS. >> >> This week it felt a lot less so. The first immediate gut drop I felt >> when I thought "I hope this doesn't turn out to be a hidden entrypoint >> for someone to begin debating my lived experiences" turned out to >> absolutely be true, as far as I can tell. That's how it felt to me. >> >> On that note, just earlier today, you said: >> >>> The inclusion of 'sex' in the CoC would be to recognize the issues >>> faced by female-born people. As far as I'm aware, no female-born >>> person has taken part in the discussion at all, because none seem >>> to exist in the community. (What a coincidence.) >> >> Well as said previously, there's at least one. She's not on the >> guix-devel list, so she's cc'ed, because I don't want anyone to think >> I'm misrepresenting her. She's not on the list but she read everything >> I wrote on here before I sent it. And that's one cisgender woman (with, >> again, no small background in women and gender studies), who *is* a part >> of this community and has even presented at a conference in a heavily >> Guix-related talk, who has expressed that she wouldn't want to be taking >> part or associating herself in this community if it takes a gender >> essentialist turn. >> >> At any rate, here's the thing. Taylan, I really like your work, I would >> like to think that you didn't mean to bring harm or hurt like this. But >> you asked for someone to point to it, and I decided to speak here >> because, since this went on for a week, it must not have been known or >> understood. >> >> At any rate, the updated upstream CoC, seems great. +1 from me. As I >> said, if it wasn't as an entry point for a debate of experiences, as >> just talking about protecting *also* sexual characteristics, great. But >> if it's an entry point for a debate, and it *has been*, about >> qutestioning the lived experiences of trans folk on the internet, >> consider that it already sucks being a trans person on the internet and >> for the most part we just want people to be nice to us so we can do our >> damn work and live in peace. >> >> And I would like for this thread to not, ironically, fork into exactly >> the same thing I am asking to end. Acknowledge maybe, and move on. >> Or just move on. Thank you. >> >> Your hacker Guix friend, >> - Christine
