Hello! I am Morgan Lemmer-Webber, a cis-gendered woman who is a guix user (though not a developer). I have been an active member of the FOSS world, am co-host of a FOSS podcast, and overall have had delightful interactions with the guix community. As Christine said, I do also have a PhD in Art History with a focus on the social history of women, and therefore am well versed in feminist theory.
That being said, I have zero interest in being the tolken cis-woman in any group of people. In fact, this type of gender-essentialist conversation being raised by men in an attempt to speak for women (who may or may not want to join a community) without actually consulting women (who may or may not already be in that community) is exactly the type of interaction that would make me take pause before joining a community. On Fri, Feb 25, 2022 at 6:34 PM Christine Lemmer-Webber < cweb...@dustycloud.org> wrote: > Taylan, I respect you and your work. I don't think you realize how much > hurt you've caused here, and I want to take your contributions at good > faith. But this has continued for days and it has definitely hurt a > lot. > > I just got out of a presentation that I've been in crunchmode preparing > for all week. It was a technically intense presentation with a demo > that required a lot of engineering effort to get there. I was stressed > enough. But the demo went well. Everyone was excited, including me. > > I got off the call, and normally what I would feel after something ended > like that was relief. But I didn't feel relieved. I felt... tired. > > And then I started crying uncontrollably for over an hour. Because the > pressure of the presentation was so great that I had to push down and > push down all the feelings I had about what was happening on this > thread, but when it was over, they overflowed. > > And I don't believe, I don't want to believe, you meant to cause harm or > hurt. You have several messages recently clearly indicating that you > feel you have been accused of things. This is not an accusation. This > is an appeal to empathy. > > Normally I would have left this be quiet, or send an email one-on-one, > when things reached this stage. But I tried to help this conversation > end in quiet, and it hasn't happened, and it's been days. So I'm > relaying my experiences here. > > Taylan Kammer <taylan.kam...@gmail.com> writes: > > > On 24.02.2022 14:21, Ekaitz Zarraga wrote: > >> > >>> I suspect you haven't properly read any of my mails and jumped to > conclusions > >>> based on a quick skim, or something like that. > >> > >> Well, I've been reading them and some people told you to stop and you > still > >> continue. People already told you were bothering them. > > > > I haven't posted anything after Andy and Oliver asked to take it > off-list, > > other than responding to Blake's accusation of course. > > > > Before that, nobody told me to stop or that I was bothering them, unless > I > > missed it? > > I did... > > And maybe you missed it, but I definitely did. I *definitely* did. > This was on Monday, it is now Friday. Here's what I said across my > two emails: > > - I had already expressed that my very first reaction was wanting to > support broader language but NOT to have a debate about trans > experiences: > > > My first thought when looking at the top of this thread was, > > 'well I would be okay with adding a word if it isn't an *entry point* > > for debating trans experiences on list' but it looks like it's likely > > to be so > > - And then I said that, as a person affected, I didn't feel comfortable > debating these topics on a technical mailing list: > > > I'm a transwoman with intersex characteristics. I've certainly > > read a ton about sexual and gender therory, have read plenty of > > books on it and I can say without a doubt that I really just don't > > feel comfortable debating these topics on a technical mailing list. > > - And then, when I saw your email where you had pulled back, I tried > to help everything close in a way that was friendly: > > > Ah okay, hadn't seen this post before I replied. > > > > It seems the issue is closed then. Look forward to everyone getting > > back to hacking. :) > > Shortly thereafter I stepped away from my computer and went downstairs > and went downstairs to prepare lunch. Morgan, my wife (who is also a > Guix user, btw) said, "Are you okay? You look stressed." > > And I relayed what happened on this thread. > > "Is *that* what's being debated on this list? I'm not a Guix > *developer*, but I am a Guix *user*. That kind of gender essentialism > makes me both really want to join the mailing list so I can weigh in > and really *not* want to have to weigh in because I don't want to have > to deal with all that. That's not the kind of community I want to > participate in." > > We co-presented at the FOSDEM room together in the "Lisp but Beautiful, > Lisp for Everyone" talk. A major portion of the talk was about Guix. > Another major portion of the talk (since "who's representing feminism" > keeps coming up) was about Morgan's experiences *writing her > dissertation using a markup language which is secretly a lisp dialect* > on "Women and Wool Working in Ancient Rome". Her PhD, Masters, Major, > and Minor were all embedded in gender and sexual analysis through the > lived experiences of women, primarily cisgender, throughout history. > No matter how many books you and I have read on gender and sexuality, > I can guarantee you Morgan has read more. > > Anyway if there are any other cisgender women who have presented about > Guix in a video presentation I would be pleased, but as far as I know, > she's the only one I've seen do so. Corrections extremely welcome. > Active steps to pull more women into our community, strongly encouraged. > > But at the time I said, "Oh, I think it wrapped up. The person who > raised it backpedaled and I tried to be friendly in softening the > closing by saying 'cool let's all get back to hacking!' so I don't think > we have to worry about it anymore. > > And then we had lunch, and I thought it was over. > > Imagine my surprise went I sent what I had thought were three very > clear, but polite, signals asking to not debate over the the experiences > of transgender people on this list, one of which was a friendly > acknowledgement that it was over from the person who raised it. But the > most uncomfortable thing for me was that the reply first thanked me for > being polite about things, but used it as an *opening* for *another* > entry point about that. > > Can you imagine how that feels? How that looks? > > And then it continued for an entire week. > > Here I'll say something I haven't said previously: I did not come out as > transgender for a long time because I was *afraid* to come out as > transgender. Maybe you know, it's a popular past-time on the internet > right now to bully prominent trans technologists into suicide as a kind > of game. Here are two examples: > > > https://www.destructoid.com/transgender-dolphin-emulator-developer-dead-age-23/ > > https://kotaku.com/the-brilliant-snes-emulator-creator-known-as-near-has-d-1847182851 > > I currently consider suicide by online bullying to be my highest > mortality risk factor. Having a community where I feel safe, it's not a > small thing. The Guix community has felt like one of the nicest, safest > places in FOSS. > > This week it felt a lot less so. The first immediate gut drop I felt > when I thought "I hope this doesn't turn out to be a hidden entrypoint > for someone to begin debating my lived experiences" turned out to > absolutely be true, as far as I can tell. That's how it felt to me. > > On that note, just earlier today, you said: > > > The inclusion of 'sex' in the CoC would be to recognize the issues > > faced by female-born people. As far as I'm aware, no female-born > > person has taken part in the discussion at all, because none seem > > to exist in the community. (What a coincidence.) > > Well as said previously, there's at least one. She's not on the > guix-devel list, so she's cc'ed, because I don't want anyone to think > I'm misrepresenting her. She's not on the list but she read everything > I wrote on here before I sent it. And that's one cisgender woman (with, > again, no small background in women and gender studies), who *is* a part > of this community and has even presented at a conference in a heavily > Guix-related talk, who has expressed that she wouldn't want to be taking > part or associating herself in this community if it takes a gender > essentialist turn. > > At any rate, here's the thing. Taylan, I really like your work, I would > like to think that you didn't mean to bring harm or hurt like this. But > you asked for someone to point to it, and I decided to speak here > because, since this went on for a week, it must not have been known or > understood. > > At any rate, the updated upstream CoC, seems great. +1 from me. As I > said, if it wasn't as an entry point for a debate of experiences, as > just talking about protecting *also* sexual characteristics, great. But > if it's an entry point for a debate, and it *has been*, about > qutestioning the lived experiences of trans folk on the internet, > consider that it already sucks being a trans person on the internet and > for the most part we just want people to be nice to us so we can do our > damn work and live in peace. > > And I would like for this thread to not, ironically, fork into exactly > the same thing I am asking to end. Acknowledge maybe, and move on. > Or just move on. Thank you. > > Your hacker Guix friend, > - Christine >
