Thank you Frederico, I have a copy of the Confrarias offered by Dr. Leopoldo da Rocha to me, just before his death. Also a copy of Pe. Saldanha. Thank you. Appreciated. Sonia do Rosario Gomes
On Tue, 8 Jul, 2025, 11:12 pm fredericknoronha, <[email protected]> wrote: > Dr Leopoldo da Rocha's work on the *confrarias* is here: > > https://www.scribd.com/document/116619605/Leopoldo-Da-Rocha-as-Confrarias-de-Goa-Seculos-Xvi-Xx > > Pe. Gabriel Saldanha's* Historia de Goa* may be quite forgotten in Goa > itself, but is available online here: > https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.32055 > https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.32056 > > Note: It can sometimes be tough to access the Internet Achieve from Goa or > other parts of India. > FN > > On Tuesday, 8 July 2025 at 23:01:11 UTC+5:30 Sonia Gomes wrote: > >> Sorry: Nothing more to say. Both Pe. Gabriel Saldanha as well as Dr. >> Leopoldo da Rocha wrote in Portuguese. As far as I know, there are no >> translations in English. >> So who has done this insightful analyses of both their books? Thank you >> very much. I appreciate your thoughts but I have no desire to get into any >> arguments with you Frederico. Thank you very much. >> Sonia do Rosario Gomes >> >> On Tue, 8 Jul, 2025, 10:18 pm Sonia Gomes, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Nothing to say >>> >>> On Tue, 8 Jul, 2025, 9:27 pm Tino de Sa, <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >> FN - a first class summary of the critical points to bear in mind while >>>> making a historical assessment of the Inquisition. >>>> Ignorance about what the Inquisition meant, and the legal framework >>>> under which it operated is colossal, even among Catholics. >>>> The current trend to see the Inquisition as an instrument of >>>> 'conversion' is laughable. In fact, the reverse is probably true: since the >>>> Inquisition extended only to those who had been baptised, and not to >>>> non-Christians (except in very special cases, where a non-Christian was >>>> found to be actively engaged in opposing it), the Inquisition probably >>>> *dissuaded >>>> *many from accepting baptism, lest they come under its mandate! So >>>> while it brought about severe travails for Christians, both 'old' and >>>> 'new', it certainly had nothing to do with furthering conversions of >>>> non-Christians to Christianity! >>>> Tino de Sa >>>> >>>> >>>> On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 8:28 PM fredericknoronha <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Not all repression in Portuguese Goa was the Inquisition (and not all >>>>> of the Portuguese rule was repression alone). Actually, the Goa >>>>> Inquisition was a formal institution of the Catholic Church, focussed >>>>> primarily on religious orthodoxy, targetting mainly "New Christians" >>>>> (converted Jews and Muslims suspected of continuing their own faith) and >>>>> converts who were accused of relapsing in their beliefs. Hindus living >>>>> under Portuguese rule were not subject to the Inquisition. It tried (i) >>>>> Converts for "relapsing" to their old practices (ii) "Crypto" Jews and >>>>> Muslims (iii) Europeans or missionaries suspected of "heretical beliefs". >>>>> >>>>> Confiscation of native lands was a colonial strategy, not an >>>>> Inquisition doctrine. This was common among colonial regimes worldwide, >>>>> including Mughal and British Indian. We see new forms of it at play in >>>>> our >>>>> times too. Likewise, regulation of dress and festivals was more about >>>>> control, not just religion. This continued after the Inquisition was >>>>> abolished, and was not unique to it. >>>>> >>>>> The so-called *Orfãos do Estado* ("State Orphans") was a broader >>>>> colonial policy, part of the Iberian colonial idea of "civilising" >>>>> non-Christians. The aim was to assimilate them into Portuguese-Christian >>>>> society, while ignoring the wishes of surviving kin. Of course, this is >>>>> deeply problematic, but it is distinct from the Inquisition's judicial >>>>> role >>>>> of trying cases of what it saw as heresy and apostasy. >>>>> >>>>> Pe. Gabriel Saldanha and Dr Leopoldo da Rocha have left us valuable >>>>> writing; but they need to be read in context. Saldanha was a Catholic >>>>> priest and historian of the late 19th and early 20th centuries; his >>>>> accounts need to be seen against his own biases and the framework of that >>>>> era. Dr Rocha wrote at a time where anti-clericalism and secular >>>>> nationalism were on the rise in Goa, and his critiques could reflect that. >>>>> >>>>> In a word: we should be careful not to collapse all colonial >>>>> oppression under the "Inquisition" umbrella. It has been convenient >>>>> short-hand for a lot many things for some time now. FN >>>>> >>>>> On Monday, 7 July 2025 at 15:16:32 UTC+5:30 Sonia Gomes wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I am reading Pe. Gabriel Saldanha and a great many times, he mentions >>>>>> about fields as well as coconut groves removed from the possession of >>>>>> Hindus and donated to convents and churches for their upkeep. Also Dr. >>>>>> Leopoldo da Rocha mentions in a monograph of various strictures passed >>>>>> against various festivities and the personal lives of the Hindus. Even >>>>>> clothes. Now considering the disruption of lives, the loss of property, >>>>>> bought by so many Catholics at throw away prices, would this be a part of >>>>>> the Inquisition? And the kidnapping of orfãos from the Hindu families to >>>>>> be >>>>>> handed over to the Pai dos Cristãos for conversion to Catholics even if >>>>>> there were Hindu families willing to bring them up as Hindus. Which part >>>>>> of >>>>>> Inquisition is this? Or does the Inquisition only deal with torture and >>>>>> Autos de fé? Dr. Pacheco de Figueiredo would like your opinion. Thank you >>>>>> and much appreciated. >>>>>> Sonia do Rosario Gomes >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, 7 Jul, 2025, 12:52 am Tino de Sa, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This clarifies things, John. And seems to be a fair and accurate >>>>>>> historical assessment. >>>>>>> Tino >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2025 at 11:25 PM John de Figueiredo < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I was not referring to FN’s comment, I was referring to the >>>>>>>> announcement of the lecture “The Jews of Goa under the Portuguese” by >>>>>>>> Professor Shalya Weil. It says that “many Jews” were tried but Alan’s >>>>>>>> research shows that only 15 were tried. The focus of the Inquisitors >>>>>>>> was on >>>>>>>> Christians, not on Jews or on Hindus. >>>>>>>> Death by fire was not unusual those days. Before the establishment >>>>>>>> of the Inquisition in Goa, several homosexuals were killed by fire, and >>>>>>>> both Goan Christians and Hindus approved their killings. There was >>>>>>>> also the >>>>>>>> practice of “sati” (“suttee”). Thus being said, to disinter the >>>>>>>> remains of >>>>>>>> a person and burn them and to burn women who were old and poor are >>>>>>>> horrific >>>>>>>> displays of religious intolerance and most certainly contrary to the >>>>>>>> teachings of Jesus of Nazareth under whose name those practices were >>>>>>>> conducted.. Pyrard de Laval was probably right when he stated that the >>>>>>>> practices of the Inquisition were excessive even for the standards of >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> time. What Alan’s research shows is that those practices in Goa were >>>>>>>> milder >>>>>>>> than in Portugal. >>>>>>>> John M. de Figueiredo >>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Jul 6, 2025, at 8:35 AM, Tino de Sa <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But John, that is exactly what FN said. The 'Jews' who were >>>>>>>> targeted by the Inquisition were not because they were ethnic Jews, or >>>>>>>> Jews >>>>>>>> who professed and practised the Jewish faith (these were discriminated >>>>>>>> against, but not subject to the Inquisition), but Jews who had >>>>>>>> converted to >>>>>>>> Christianity, but were suspected of - as Christians - practising >>>>>>>> rituals of >>>>>>>> their former religion in secret. >>>>>>>> Tino de Sa >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2025 at 4:39 AM John de Figueiredo < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This description of the activities of the Inquisition in Goa is >>>>>>>>> misleading. Alan Machado (Prabhu) demonstrated on the basis of >>>>>>>>> original >>>>>>>>> documents that the primary targets of the Inquisition of Goa were not >>>>>>>>> Jews, >>>>>>>>> Hindus, and other Non-Christians unless they interfered with the >>>>>>>>> workings >>>>>>>>> of the Inquisition. The primary targets were Christians. As I noted >>>>>>>>> in my >>>>>>>>> articles on the practice of Ayurvedic Medicine in Goa, when Gabriel >>>>>>>>> Dellon >>>>>>>>> was in jail and pretended to be sick, the Inquisitors brought a Hindu >>>>>>>>> physician to treat him. Machado (Prabhu) also demonstrated that the >>>>>>>>> Inquisition in Goa was relatively mild compared to the ones in >>>>>>>>> Portugal. >>>>>>>>> The clear proof of this is the independent testimony of foreign >>>>>>>>> travelers >>>>>>>>> in the 16th and 17th centuries that there were several synagogues in >>>>>>>>> Goa >>>>>>>>> and Jews and Hindus were practicing their religion freely in Goa. >>>>>>>>> There was >>>>>>>>> even a Rua dos Judeus (Road of the Jews) in Old Goa (Velha Goa) which >>>>>>>>> suggests that Jews were settled in Goa. Yet, as Machado (Prabhu) >>>>>>>>> noted, the >>>>>>>>> same fictions about the Inquisition of Goa get repeated over and over. >>>>>>>>> John M. de Figueiredo >>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2025, at 9:29 AM, Tino de Sa <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What a terrible pity that the lecture is not available on youtube! >>>>>>>>> Or is it? >>>>>>>>> Tino de Sa >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 5:27 PM William Robert Da Silva < >>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Your explanation is too meagre in historical explanation. The >>>>>>>>>> Jews and early Christians were in West-Coast India very early for >>>>>>>>>> trade, >>>>>>>>>> continuing before and after the fall of Rome. Cosmas Indicopleustes >>>>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>>>> are examples of this and we need to explore more in these areas. >>>>>>>>>> What is >>>>>>>>>> done is Goa, Portugal is too meagre to bring out history. >>>>>>>>>> William Robert Da Silva >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 12:07 AM fredericknoronha < >>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Shalva Weil >>>>>>>>>>> *The Jews of Goa under the Portuguese* >>>>>>>>>>> Thursday 3.07.2025 >>>>>>>>>>> How to watch >>>>>>>>>>> This lecture starts on 3 July at 5:00pm (UK). >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.lockdownuniversity.org/email_verifications/new> >>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.lockdownuniversity.org/about/subscribe> >>>>>>>>>>> Summary >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Please note this session will only be available to watch live.* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There may have been early settlement of Jews in Goa, but there >>>>>>>>>>> certainly was a Jewish colony there under the Portuguese. However, >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> Portuguese set up an Inquisition in Goa and tried many Jews and >>>>>>>>>>> conversos >>>>>>>>>>> or New Christians. They kept alive Garcia de Orta (1501-68), the >>>>>>>>>>> physician >>>>>>>>>>> of the king and a famous botanist, but burned his sister on the >>>>>>>>>>> stake. By >>>>>>>>>>> the 18th century the community of Jews had disappeared but their >>>>>>>>>>> memory >>>>>>>>>>> lingered on in some families to this day. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> https://www.lockdownuniversity.org/ >>>>>>>>>>> lectures/2560-the-jews-of-goa-under-the-portuguese >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/01568723-9a2f-4dcb-b6c1-9e811bfa52f0n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/01568723-9a2f-4dcb-b6c1-9e811bfa52f0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CA%2BvNr4%2BdyVUhzKkfbo5WQLNKe%3DZ_N6fm89iBKMkJwTzzDCQu6Q%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CA%2BvNr4%2BdyVUhzKkfbo5WQLNKe%3DZ_N6fm89iBKMkJwTzzDCQu6Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> *Dr. Anthony de Sa, IAS (Retd), PhD**, FRICS, MPA (Harvard)* >>>>>>>>> *Former Chief Secretary of Madhya Pradesh,* >>>>>>>>> *Former Chairman, MP Real Estate Regulatory Authority (RERA)* >>>>>>>>> *Mobile (WhatsApp): +91-9810981818 <+91%2098109%2081818>* >>>>>>>>> *e-mail: [email protected]* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> * [email protected]* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3Drhv2bLUcBY%2BxCE2K67uCxnFoh_wDg4Bcs1d5NpYFY7HAMg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3Drhv2bLUcBY%2BxCE2K67uCxnFoh_wDg4Bcs1d5NpYFY7HAMg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20433D3C-5FBF-43A2-95BB-6340A2ABD0BC%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20433D3C-5FBF-43A2-95BB-6340A2ABD0BC%40sbcglobal.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> *Dr. Anthony de Sa, IAS (Retd), PhD**, FRICS, MPA (Harvard)* >>>>>>>> *Former Chief Secretary of Madhya Pradesh,* >>>>>>>> *Former Chairman, MP Real Estate Regulatory Authority (RERA)* >>>>>>>> *Mobile (WhatsApp): +91-9810981818 <+91%2098109%2081818>* >>>>>>>> *e-mail: [email protected]* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> * [email protected]* >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3DrhvJASCK3zYcasRHkX_HC0QXo7o3wxS4DJVSW8m2-DqwGw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3DrhvJASCK3zYcasRHkX_HC0QXo7o3wxS4DJVSW8m2-DqwGw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1F011779-E0DE-4E40-97CB-AFCC7AA962E3%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1F011779-E0DE-4E40-97CB-AFCC7AA962E3%40sbcglobal.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> >>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3DrhtEHWf3JUXJz-UQNQY2zyAqbL9bEh7WBOp0VmY5UumEMg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3DrhtEHWf3JUXJz-UQNQY2zyAqbL9bEh7WBOp0VmY5UumEMg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/da4d55e7-df86-4452-bc79-f9e664a45df2n%40googlegroups.com >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/da4d55e7-df86-4452-bc79-f9e664a45df2n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> >>> To view this discussion, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3Drhtit4y2iRXFxnACj6Ru7Y66GgAk54KnndBR0BO%3DuviE%3DQ%40mail.gmail.com >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3Drhtit4y2iRXFxnACj6Ru7Y66GgAk54KnndBR0BO%3DuviE%3DQ%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>> . >>>> >>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Goa-Research-Net" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To view this discussion, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/53ff9487-f14f-4518-815d-65f587ce6a08n%40googlegroups.com > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/53ff9487-f14f-4518-815d-65f587ce6a08n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAG_LhYPNx%2Bvw2nPqijQ-8fuTHKbT0-PMO0NFBwDL-e8aB%2BWbBg%40mail.gmail.com.
