Sorry: Nothing more to say. Both Pe. Gabriel Saldanha as well as Dr. Leopoldo da Rocha wrote in Portuguese. As far as I know, there are no translations in English. So who has done this insightful analyses of both their books? Thank you very much. I appreciate your thoughts but I have no desire to get into any arguments with you Frederico. Thank you very much. Sonia do Rosario Gomes
On Tue, 8 Jul, 2025, 10:18 pm Sonia Gomes, <[email protected]> wrote: > Nothing to say > > On Tue, 8 Jul, 2025, 9:27 pm Tino de Sa, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> FN - a first class summary of the critical points to bear in mind while >> making a historical assessment of the Inquisition. >> Ignorance about what the Inquisition meant, and the legal framework under >> which it operated is colossal, even among Catholics. >> The current trend to see the Inquisition as an instrument of 'conversion' >> is laughable. In fact, the reverse is probably true: since the Inquisition >> extended only to those who had been baptised, and not to non-Christians >> (except in very special cases, where a non-Christian was found to be >> actively engaged in opposing it), the Inquisition probably *dissuaded *many >> from accepting baptism, lest they come under its mandate! So while it >> brought about severe travails for Christians, both 'old' and 'new', it >> certainly had nothing to do with furthering conversions of non-Christians >> to Christianity! >> Tino de Sa >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 8:28 PM fredericknoronha < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Not all repression in Portuguese Goa was the Inquisition (and not all of >>> the Portuguese rule was repression alone). Actually, the Goa Inquisition >>> was a formal institution of the Catholic Church, focussed primarily on >>> religious orthodoxy, targetting mainly "New Christians" (converted Jews and >>> Muslims suspected of continuing their own faith) and converts who were >>> accused of relapsing in their beliefs. Hindus living under Portuguese rule >>> were not subject to the Inquisition. It tried (i) Converts for "relapsing" >>> to their old practices (ii) "Crypto" Jews and Muslims (iii) Europeans or >>> missionaries suspected of "heretical beliefs". >>> >>> Confiscation of native lands was a colonial strategy, not an Inquisition >>> doctrine. This was common among colonial regimes worldwide, including >>> Mughal and British Indian. We see new forms of it at play in our times >>> too. Likewise, regulation of dress and festivals was more about control, >>> not just religion. This continued after the Inquisition was abolished, and >>> was not unique to it. >>> >>> The so-called *Orfãos do Estado* ("State Orphans") was a broader >>> colonial policy, part of the Iberian colonial idea of "civilising" >>> non-Christians. The aim was to assimilate them into Portuguese-Christian >>> society, while ignoring the wishes of surviving kin. Of course, this is >>> deeply problematic, but it is distinct from the Inquisition's judicial role >>> of trying cases of what it saw as heresy and apostasy. >>> >>> Pe. Gabriel Saldanha and Dr Leopoldo da Rocha have left us valuable >>> writing; but they need to be read in context. Saldanha was a Catholic >>> priest and historian of the late 19th and early 20th centuries; his >>> accounts need to be seen against his own biases and the framework of that >>> era. Dr Rocha wrote at a time where anti-clericalism and secular >>> nationalism were on the rise in Goa, and his critiques could reflect that. >>> >>> In a word: we should be careful not to collapse all colonial oppression >>> under the "Inquisition" umbrella. It has been convenient short-hand for a >>> lot many things for some time now. FN >>> >>> On Monday, 7 July 2025 at 15:16:32 UTC+5:30 Sonia Gomes wrote: >>> >>>> I am reading Pe. Gabriel Saldanha and a great many times, he mentions >>>> about fields as well as coconut groves removed from the possession of >>>> Hindus and donated to convents and churches for their upkeep. Also Dr. >>>> Leopoldo da Rocha mentions in a monograph of various strictures passed >>>> against various festivities and the personal lives of the Hindus. Even >>>> clothes. Now considering the disruption of lives, the loss of property, >>>> bought by so many Catholics at throw away prices, would this be a part of >>>> the Inquisition? And the kidnapping of orfãos from the Hindu families to be >>>> handed over to the Pai dos Cristãos for conversion to Catholics even if >>>> there were Hindu families willing to bring them up as Hindus. Which part of >>>> Inquisition is this? Or does the Inquisition only deal with torture and >>>> Autos de fé? Dr. Pacheco de Figueiredo would like your opinion. Thank you >>>> and much appreciated. >>>> Sonia do Rosario Gomes >>>> >>>> On Mon, 7 Jul, 2025, 12:52 am Tino de Sa, <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This clarifies things, John. And seems to be a fair and accurate >>>>> historical assessment. >>>>> Tino >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2025 at 11:25 PM John de Figueiredo < >>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I was not referring to FN’s comment, I was referring to the >>>>>> announcement of the lecture “The Jews of Goa under the Portuguese” by >>>>>> Professor Shalya Weil. It says that “many Jews” were tried but Alan’s >>>>>> research shows that only 15 were tried. The focus of the Inquisitors was >>>>>> on >>>>>> Christians, not on Jews or on Hindus. >>>>>> Death by fire was not unusual those days. Before the establishment of >>>>>> the Inquisition in Goa, several homosexuals were killed by fire, and both >>>>>> Goan Christians and Hindus approved their killings. There was also the >>>>>> practice of “sati” (“suttee”). Thus being said, to disinter the remains >>>>>> of >>>>>> a person and burn them and to burn women who were old and poor are >>>>>> horrific >>>>>> displays of religious intolerance and most certainly contrary to the >>>>>> teachings of Jesus of Nazareth under whose name those practices were >>>>>> conducted.. Pyrard de Laval was probably right when he stated that the >>>>>> practices of the Inquisition were excessive even for the standards of the >>>>>> time. What Alan’s research shows is that those practices in Goa were >>>>>> milder >>>>>> than in Portugal. >>>>>> John M. de Figueiredo >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 6, 2025, at 8:35 AM, Tino de Sa <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> But John, that is exactly what FN said. The 'Jews' who were targeted >>>>>> by the Inquisition were not because they were ethnic Jews, or Jews who >>>>>> professed and practised the Jewish faith (these were discriminated >>>>>> against, >>>>>> but not subject to the Inquisition), but Jews who had converted to >>>>>> Christianity, but were suspected of - as Christians - practising rituals >>>>>> of >>>>>> their former religion in secret. >>>>>> Tino de Sa >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 6, 2025 at 4:39 AM John de Figueiredo < >>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> This description of the activities of the Inquisition in Goa is >>>>>>> misleading. Alan Machado (Prabhu) demonstrated on the basis of original >>>>>>> documents that the primary targets of the Inquisition of Goa were not >>>>>>> Jews, >>>>>>> Hindus, and other Non-Christians unless they interfered with the >>>>>>> workings >>>>>>> of the Inquisition. The primary targets were Christians. As I noted in >>>>>>> my >>>>>>> articles on the practice of Ayurvedic Medicine in Goa, when Gabriel >>>>>>> Dellon >>>>>>> was in jail and pretended to be sick, the Inquisitors brought a Hindu >>>>>>> physician to treat him. Machado (Prabhu) also demonstrated that the >>>>>>> Inquisition in Goa was relatively mild compared to the ones in Portugal. >>>>>>> The clear proof of this is the independent testimony of foreign >>>>>>> travelers >>>>>>> in the 16th and 17th centuries that there were several synagogues in Goa >>>>>>> and Jews and Hindus were practicing their religion freely in Goa. There >>>>>>> was >>>>>>> even a Rua dos Judeus (Road of the Jews) in Old Goa (Velha Goa) which >>>>>>> suggests that Jews were settled in Goa. Yet, as Machado (Prabhu) noted, >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same fictions about the Inquisition of Goa get repeated over and over. >>>>>>> John M. de Figueiredo >>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2025, at 9:29 AM, Tino de Sa <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What a terrible pity that the lecture is not available on youtube! >>>>>>> Or is it? >>>>>>> Tino de Sa >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 5:27 PM William Robert Da Silva < >>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Your explanation is too meagre in historical explanation. The Jews >>>>>>>> and early Christians were in West-Coast India very early for trade, >>>>>>>> continuing before and after the fall of Rome. Cosmas Indicopleustes >>>>>>>> etc. >>>>>>>> are examples of this and we need to explore more in these areas. What >>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>> done is Goa, Portugal is too meagre to bring out history. >>>>>>>> William Robert Da Silva >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 12:07 AM fredericknoronha < >>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Shalva Weil >>>>>>>>> *The Jews of Goa under the Portuguese* >>>>>>>>> Thursday 3.07.2025 >>>>>>>>> How to watch >>>>>>>>> This lecture starts on 3 July at 5:00pm (UK). >>>>>>>>> <https://www.lockdownuniversity.org/email_verifications/new> >>>>>>>>> <https://www.lockdownuniversity.org/about/subscribe> >>>>>>>>> Summary >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *Please note this session will only be available to watch live.* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> There may have been early settlement of Jews in Goa, but there >>>>>>>>> certainly was a Jewish colony there under the Portuguese. However, the >>>>>>>>> Portuguese set up an Inquisition in Goa and tried many Jews and >>>>>>>>> conversos >>>>>>>>> or New Christians. They kept alive Garcia de Orta (1501-68), the >>>>>>>>> physician >>>>>>>>> of the king and a famous botanist, but burned his sister on the >>>>>>>>> stake. By >>>>>>>>> the 18th century the community of Jews had disappeared but their >>>>>>>>> memory >>>>>>>>> lingered on in some families to this day. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> https://www.lockdownuniversity.org/lectures/2560-the-jews-of-goa-under-the-portuguese >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/01568723-9a2f-4dcb-b6c1-9e811bfa52f0n%40googlegroups.com >>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/01568723-9a2f-4dcb-b6c1-9e811bfa52f0n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CA%2BvNr4%2BdyVUhzKkfbo5WQLNKe%3DZ_N6fm89iBKMkJwTzzDCQu6Q%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CA%2BvNr4%2BdyVUhzKkfbo5WQLNKe%3DZ_N6fm89iBKMkJwTzzDCQu6Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> *Dr. Anthony de Sa, IAS (Retd), PhD**, FRICS, MPA (Harvard)* >>>>>>> *Former Chief Secretary of Madhya Pradesh,* >>>>>>> *Former Chairman, MP Real Estate Regulatory Authority (RERA)* >>>>>>> *Mobile (WhatsApp): +91-9810981818 <+91%2098109%2081818>* >>>>>>> *e-mail: [email protected]* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> * [email protected]* >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3Drhv2bLUcBY%2BxCE2K67uCxnFoh_wDg4Bcs1d5NpYFY7HAMg%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3Drhv2bLUcBY%2BxCE2K67uCxnFoh_wDg4Bcs1d5NpYFY7HAMg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20433D3C-5FBF-43A2-95BB-6340A2ABD0BC%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/20433D3C-5FBF-43A2-95BB-6340A2ABD0BC%40sbcglobal.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> *Dr. Anthony de Sa, IAS (Retd), PhD**, FRICS, MPA (Harvard)* >>>>>> *Former Chief Secretary of Madhya Pradesh,* >>>>>> *Former Chairman, MP Real Estate Regulatory Authority (RERA)* >>>>>> *Mobile (WhatsApp): +91-9810981818 <+91%2098109%2081818>* >>>>>> *e-mail: [email protected]* >>>>>> >>>>>> * [email protected]* >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3DrhvJASCK3zYcasRHkX_HC0QXo7o3wxS4DJVSW8m2-DqwGw%40mail.gmail.com >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/CAPf%3DrhvJASCK3zYcasRHkX_HC0QXo7o3wxS4DJVSW8m2-DqwGw%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To view this discussion, visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1F011779-E0DE-4E40-97CB-AFCC7AA962E3%40sbcglobal.net >>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/goa-research-net/1F011779-E0DE-4E40-97CB-AFCC7AA962E3%40sbcglobal.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Goa-Research-Net" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> >>>> To view 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