Thanks Benson, +1. Jim, if you look at the isis-dev list, then you will find a mail which predates the gene...@i.a.o post [1] and where the mentors expressed the the same concerns and made clear what must _not_ happen on such a jit communication but instead find it's way to the mailing list. So I have the good faith that all the involved people got the idea behind it in the meantime.
txs and LieGrue, strub [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/isis-...@incubator.apache.org/msg00416.html --- On Mon, 11/22/10, Benson Margulies <bimargul...@gmail.com> wrote: > From: Benson Margulies <bimargul...@gmail.com> > Subject: Re: [ISIS] Re: Conference call > To: general@incubator.apache.org > Date: Monday, November 22, 2010, 3:16 PM > I am nothing if not chronically > disingenuous. > > My first concern in responding here is a process concern. > As far as I > can tell, the Incubator PMC has not formally voted to > forbid the use > of real-time communications in podlings. Absent such a > vote, the use > of these technologies is permitted, and it's up to the > mentors to > guide, monitor, and ring alarm bells, as needed. All snark > aside, my > primary concern here is to say, 'OK, I'm a mentor, and I've > registered > these concerns, and I will endeavor to give satisfaction in > the > discharge of my duties on this.' It seems to me that this > should be > enough. If someone thinks that this is not enough, I wish > that they > would open another thread in which they formally propose to > impose > limits on the use of these technologies. > > My second concern echos an oft-repeated point of JoeS's. > The point of > the incubation process is to get podlings to act like TLPs > as soon as > possible. Real Apache projects use real-time > communications, within > the boundaries and limitations of the Foundation's > policies. _Use_ of > these mechanisms is not, officially, a _bad_ habit. > _Misuse_ is. So > podlings should start using it while they are podlings and > can be > supervised. > > Now, I can see Jim typing a response of 'but in the first > two weeks?' > > Well, it seems to me, and this is very much my personal > opinion, that > the initial launch of a podling inevitably involves the > close > collaboration of the founders. Nothing we do is going to > make that go > away. Real-time is a two-edged sword here; it might exclude > people > based on time zone or working style, but it might also > allow new > people who are not part of the pre-existing founding > community to get > into the thick of things more quickly. > > As a mentor on this project, I recognize that there is some > risk here > that a moment of convenience might lead to a bad habit that > will need > to be cleaned up. If that happens, by all means, hang me > out to dry > here. My personal intent is to stick with, 'OK, podling, I > hear you > that you want to set up Skype calls. Those have > community-management > risks, and you need to be extra-careful not to misuse > them.' > > > > > On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> > wrote: > > Bad habits are hard to break, esp when done early... > Comparing the > > behaviors of "TLP's in good standing" to new podlings > seems > > disingenuous. I'm sure some seasoned automobile > drivers drive > > with 1 hand on the wheel. Is that something you > encourage or > > allow those with learner's permits to do? > > > > > > On Nov 22, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Glen Daniels wrote: > > > >> +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and > pleasantly snarky viewpoint. > >> > >> While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the > community, I think people often > >> go too far in downplaying the benefits of > real-time communication. Quick > >> back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be > thought through in a much > >> more effective way than asynchronous emails, > without the need to constantly > >> "page back in" in order to follow the discussion. > Simple misunderstandings > >> often can be cleared up in minutes instead of > hours or days. And the sense > >> of getting to know someone is often subjectively > deeper in chat, and much > >> more so on a phone call. These things all help > move a project forward and > >> keep communities together. > >> > >> I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid > "real-time BAD (well, > >> except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at > least come across that way on > >> email, and I'd like to make sure that the other > side of it - i.e. "real-time, > >> when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated > into a project, can provide > >> some deep value to the whole community" - isn't > shuffled under the rug. IMO, > >> we should be messaging about how to do it well if > it's desired, not whether > >> or not to do it at all. > >> > >> Thanks, > >> --Glen > >> > >> On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: > >>> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone > to give them a little > >>> breathing room on this subject. > >>> > >>> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC > channels. These have very > >>> closely related risks to open communities. > Many TLPs in good standing > >>> hold in-person meetups from time to time. > >>> > >>> This is not to claim that the warnings in this > thread are pointless. > >>> They are good warnings. However, it's the job > of us mentors to help > >>> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, > meetups, co-workers, and > >>> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral > commission, which works > >>> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities. > >>> > >>> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as > a mentor, to _avoid_ > >>> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a > perspective comparable to that > >>> of someone off-time-zone. > >>> > >>> --benson > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski > <j...@jagunet.com> > wrote: > >>>> By definition, ANY such meeting will > exclude some people; it's just the > >>>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that > timezone either will not be > >>>> able to attend or will need to go out of > their way to attend. As > >>>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise > large groups of people, > >>>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the > place" to discuss ISIS. > >>>> > >>>> Your generic comment about "individuals > like to communicate during > >>>> long & lonely nights in front of the > keyboard" is also off the mark > >>>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. > Again, this sends a signal that > >>>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to > fall into that group. Not > >>>> a good way to build a diverse community. > >>>> > >>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried > Goeschl wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi folks, > >>>>> > >>>>> open source projects are done by > individuals. And individuals like to communicate during long > & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And meeting > the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread > around the globe. > >>>>> > >>>>> So if the ISIS > developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular > Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming > >>>>> > >>>>> +) that the meeting is announced on > the dev list > >>>>> > >>>>> +) that we not exclude any interested > party (apart from troll feeding) > >>>>> > >>>>> +) that no official statement/vote is > circumvented > >>>>> > >>>>> than I don't see any good reason why > someone could complain about it and/or impose rules how to > organize such a "come together". > >>>>> > >>>>> Speaking as one of the participants > >>>>> > >>>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to > organize the meeting > >>>>> > >>>>> +) I was delighted that we were a > dozen developers on Skype > >>>>> > >>>>> *) I was glad to answer a few > questions about the ASF (despite being seriously distracted > by my two daughters on my lap) > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Cheers, > >>>>> > >>>>> Siegfried Goeschl > >>>>> Apache ISIS Mentor > >>>>> > >>>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell > wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg > Stein wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't > be necessary. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong > for what I think needs to be done, > >>>>>> which is... > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> Just bring a summary of > >>>>>>> discussion points back to the > list, along with any recommendations. > >>>>>>> The list can then sort through > it and make decisions. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> What you said. Not a transcript > but a list of topics and discussion > >>>>>> points which continue on list. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Craig > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> We have off-list discussions > all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We > >>>>>>> don't transcribe those. We > just bring the discussion onto the list for > >>>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody > present. Skype concalls are no different > >>>>>>> than these other forums. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Cheers, > >>>>>>> -g > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, > Craig L Russell > >>>>>>> <craig.russ...@oracle.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>> My $0.02: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> The business of Apache is > conducted on email. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> It's fine to have a > periodic conference call among interested project > >>>>>>>> participants, as long as > (my list, not normative): > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> no project or community > member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call > >>>>>>>> information only to a > private list) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> no decisions are made > during the call > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> all topics discussed are > subsequently posted via email to the project > >>>>>>>> members > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Having an audio transcript > is interesting but doesn't pass my email > >>>>>>>> test. So > >>>>>>>> I'd have to say that > someone needs to transcribe the audio into email. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Craig > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 > AM, James Carman wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> I don't know about > this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and > >>>>>>>>> "open", so I don't > know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to > >>>>>>>>> watch a video or > listen to an audio recording rather than reading a > >>>>>>>>> transcript is probably > not a good idea. I'm copying the general list > >>>>>>>>> to see what others > have to say. > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 > at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din > >>>>>>>>> <nour.moham...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> Good idea > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype > monthly meeting. > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, > 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin > >>>>>>>>>> <the.malk...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> At least it > makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't > >>>>>>>>>>> know > >>>>>>>>>>> how > >>>>>>>>>>> to explain > this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :). > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> Monthly is > good. > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov > 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton > >>>>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes very > useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Yes > >>>>>>>>>>>> monthly > similar would be good. > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> Mike > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov > 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dkhayw...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> First > off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to > read the > >>>>>>>>>>>> transcript > on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo > >>>>>>>>>>>> to do > >>>>>>>>>>>> that > >>>>>>>>>>>> while I > was demo'ing). > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of > course, > >>>>>>>>>>>>> after > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> the call > finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. > >>>>>>>>>>>> At any > >>>>>>>>>>>> rate, the > details on running the demo for yourselves are on the > >>>>>>>>>>>> > "SmokeTest" > >>>>>>>>>>>> page on > the wiki [1]. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Third, > per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, > though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb, > >>>>>>>>>>>> recorded > it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices > >>>>>>>>>>>> across > >>>>>>>>>>>> the > spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just > >>>>>>>>>>>> uploaded > >>>>>>>>>>>> it to > >>>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox > account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you > >>>>>>>>>>>> aren't > >>>>>>>>>>>> subscribed > there, contact me directly). > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> again. > We > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> could > perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > Cheers > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Dan > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > >>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On > 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi > Dan, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Thanks for organizing the call. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I > was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > captured, a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with > the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > app or > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > my > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > machine. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be > able to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > associate voices with the emails. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Kevin > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>> Regards, > >>>>>>>>>>> Alexander > >>>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>> Thanks > >>>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour > >>>>>>>>>> Author of > (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User > >>>>>>>>>> Guide) > >>>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html > >>>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour > >>>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com > >>>>>>>>>> ---- > >>>>>>>>>> "Life is like > riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep > >>>>>>>>>> moving" > >>>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> "Writing clean > code is what you must do in order to call yourself a > >>>>>>>>>> professional. > There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less > >>>>>>>>>> than your best." > >>>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A > Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay > foolish." > >>>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs > >>>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, > e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>>>>>> For additional > commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Craig L Russell > >>>>>>>> Architect, Oracle > >>>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo > >>>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:craig.russ...@oracle.com > >>>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>>>>> For additional commands, > e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>>>> For additional commands, > e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Craig L Russell > >>>>>> Architect, Oracle > >>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo > >>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:craig.russ...@oracle.com > >>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >>> > >> > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > >> > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
