I like your view on this. I hope things are going well? I now work in Groningen, the Netherlands. Yeliz.
On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Glen Daniels <g...@thoughtcraft.com> wrote: > +1 as usual to Benson's extremely reasonable and pleasantly snarky viewpoint. > > While I do see the dangers of fragmenting the community, I think people often > go too far in downplaying the benefits of real-time communication. Quick > back-and-forths can enable complex scenarios to be thought through in a much > more effective way than asynchronous emails, without the need to constantly > "page back in" in order to follow the discussion. Simple misunderstandings > often can be cleared up in minutes instead of hours or days. And the sense > of getting to know someone is often subjectively deeper in chat, and much > more so on a phone call. These things all help move a project forward and > keep communities together. > > I feel like a bunch of people have a rather rigid "real-time BAD (well, > except ApacheCon), email GOOD" attitute, or at least come across that way on > email, and I'd like to make sure that the other side of it - i.e. "real-time, > when thoughtfully and appropriately integrated into a project, can provide > some deep value to the whole community" - isn't shuffled under the rug. IMO, > we should be messaging about how to do it well if it's desired, not whether > or not to do it at all. > > Thanks, > --Glen > > On 11/22/2010 8:56 AM, Benson Margulies wrote: >> As a mentor of ISIS, I'd like to ask everyone to give them a little >> breathing room on this subject. >> >> Many TLP's in good standing have active IRC channels. These have very >> closely related risks to open communities. Many TLPs in good standing >> hold in-person meetups from time to time. >> >> This is not to claim that the warnings in this thread are pointless. >> They are good warnings. However, it's the job of us mentors to help >> the community avoid the traps of Skype, IRC, meetups, co-workers, and >> the secret conspiracies of the trilateral commission, which works >> tirelessly to subvert Apache communities. >> >> If it makes anyone feel any better, I plan, as a mentor, to _avoid_ >> the Skype calls, and so to maintain a perspective comparable to that >> of someone off-time-zone. >> >> --benson >> >> >> >> On Mon, Nov 22, 2010 at 7:54 AM, Jim Jagielski <j...@jagunet.com> wrote: >>> By definition, ANY such meeting will exclude some people; it's just the >>> nature of the beast. Anyone not in that timezone either will not be >>> able to attend or will need to go out of their way to attend. As >>> such, it is *very* easy to disenfranchise large groups of people, >>> esp if the Skype chat is seen as "the place" to discuss ISIS. >>> >>> Your generic comment about "individuals like to communicate during >>> long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard" is also off the mark >>> as well... Some do, sure, but not all. Again, this sends a signal that >>> if you want to be part of ISIS you need to fall into that group. Not >>> a good way to build a diverse community. >>> >>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 5:41 PM, Siegfried Goeschl wrote: >>> >>>> Hi folks, >>>> >>>> open source projects are done by individuals. And individuals like to >>>> communicate during long & lonely nights in front of the keyboard. And >>>> meeting the other ISIS developers is difficult since the are spread around >>>> the globe. >>>> >>>> So if the ISIS developer/users/mentors/community decide to run a regular >>>> Skype meeting to meet each other electronically assuming >>>> >>>> +) that the meeting is announced on the dev list >>>> >>>> +) that we not exclude any interested party (apart from troll feeding) >>>> >>>> +) that no official statement/vote is circumvented >>>> >>>> than I don't see any good reason why someone could complain about it >>>> and/or impose rules how to organize such a "come together". >>>> >>>> Speaking as one of the participants >>>> >>>> +) I was impressed by Dan's energy to organize the meeting >>>> >>>> +) I was delighted that we were a dozen developers on Skype >>>> >>>> *) I was glad to answer a few questions about the ASF (despite being >>>> seriously distracted by my two daughters on my lap) >>>> >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> >>>> Siegfried Goeschl >>>> Apache ISIS Mentor >>>> >>>> On 11/19/10 10:52 PM, Craig L Russell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 11:04 AM, Greg Stein wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> A full transcription shouldn't be necessary. >>>>> >>>>> I agree. Transcript is too strong for what I think needs to be done, >>>>> which is... >>>>> >>>>>> Just bring a summary of >>>>>> discussion points back to the list, along with any recommendations. >>>>>> The list can then sort through it and make decisions. >>>>> >>>>> What you said. Not a transcript but a list of topics and discussion >>>>> points which continue on list. >>>>> >>>>> Craig >>>>>> >>>>>> We have off-list discussions all the time (IM, IRC, in-person). We >>>>>> don't transcribe those. We just bring the discussion onto the list for >>>>>> wrapping it up with everybody present. Skype concalls are no different >>>>>> than these other forums. >>>>>> >>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>> -g >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 13:18, Craig L Russell >>>>>> <craig.russ...@oracle.com> wrote: >>>>>>> My $0.02: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The business of Apache is conducted on email. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's fine to have a periodic conference call among interested project >>>>>>> participants, as long as (my list, not normative): >>>>>>> >>>>>>> no project or community member is excluded (e.g. by posting the call >>>>>>> information only to a private list) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> no decisions are made during the call >>>>>>> >>>>>>> all topics discussed are subsequently posted via email to the project >>>>>>> members >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Having an audio transcript is interesting but doesn't pass my email >>>>>>> test. So >>>>>>> I'd have to say that someone needs to transcribe the audio into email. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Nov 19, 2010, at 9:29 AM, James Carman wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I don't know about this. Whatever we do has to be trackable and >>>>>>>> "open", so I don't know about this Skype stuff. Requiring folks to >>>>>>>> watch a video or listen to an audio recording rather than reading a >>>>>>>> transcript is probably not a good idea. I'm copying the general list >>>>>>>> to see what others have to say. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Mohammad Nour El-Din >>>>>>>> <nour.moham...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Good idea >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> +1 on the Skype monthly meeting. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 11:14 AM, Alexander Krasnukhin >>>>>>>>> <the.malk...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At least it makes me feel ISIS is really going somewhere. I don't >>>>>>>>>> know >>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>> to explain this. E.g. there are some real ALIVE people involved :). >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Monthly is good. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Mike Burton >>>>>>>>>> <mi...@mycosystems.co.uk>wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Yes very useful interesting and enjoyable, thanks for organising it. >>>>>>>>>>> Yes >>>>>>>>>>> monthly similar would be good. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Mike >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 19 Nov 2010, at 10:49, Dan Haywood <dkhayw...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> First off, thanks to all for attending, and I really enjoyed the >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> opportunity. Hope it was useful. It was nice, actually, to read the >>>>>>>>>>> transcript on the Skype IM call afterwards (I didn't get the oppo >>>>>>>>>>> to do >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> while I was demo'ing). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Second, my apols that I didn't have the demo working. Of course, >>>>>>>>>>>> after >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> the call finished I figured out the problem in about 2 minutes. >>>>>>>>>>> At any >>>>>>>>>>> rate, the details on running the demo for yourselves are on the >>>>>>>>>>> "SmokeTest" >>>>>>>>>>> page on the wiki [1]. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Third, per a recording, like Kevin I also recorded the call using >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> CallGraph, though mine seems to have recorded ok. It's about 92Mb, >>>>>>>>>>> recorded it in stereo, and what Skype did is distribute the voices >>>>>>>>>>> across >>>>>>>>>>> the spectrum, which I think is quite nice. Anyway, I've just >>>>>>>>>>> uploaded >>>>>>>>>>> it to >>>>>>>>>>> my dropbox account and I'll post the URL on isis-private. (If you >>>>>>>>>>> aren't >>>>>>>>>>> subscribed there, contact me directly). >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lastly, it'd be nice to do a similar call like that now and >>>>>>>>>>>> again. We >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> could perhaps set one up every month, attendance purely optional. >>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers >>>>>>>>>>>> Dan >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> [1] https://cwiki.apache.org/ISIS/smoketest.html >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On 18/11/2010 20:08, Kevin Meyer - KMZ wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi Dan, >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks for organizing the call. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I was not able to record the entire call - Of the 56 minutes >>>>>>>>>>>>> captured, a >>>>>>>>>>>>> lot of it is silence. I'm not sure if it is an issue with the >>>>>>>>>>>>> app or >>>>>>>>>>>>> my >>>>>>>>>>>>> machine. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks to all who participated, it was good to be able to >>>>>>>>>>>>> associate voices with the emails. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kevin >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Regards, >>>>>>>>>> Alexander >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>>>> - Mohammad Nour >>>>>>>>> Author of (WebSphere Application Server Community Edition 2.0 User >>>>>>>>> Guide) >>>>>>>>> http://www.redbooks.ibm.com/abstracts/sg247585.html >>>>>>>>> - LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/mnour >>>>>>>>> - Blog: http://tadabborat.blogspot.com >>>>>>>>> ---- >>>>>>>>> "Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep >>>>>>>>> moving" >>>>>>>>> - Albert Einstein >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Writing clean code is what you must do in order to call yourself a >>>>>>>>> professional. There is no reasonable excuse for doing anything less >>>>>>>>> than your best." >>>>>>>>> - Clean Code: A Handbook of Agile Software Craftsmanship >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "Stay hungry, stay foolish." >>>>>>>>> - Steve Jobs >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig L Russell >>>>>>> Architect, Oracle >>>>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo >>>>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:craig.russ...@oracle.com >>>>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Craig L Russell >>>>> Architect, Oracle >>>>> http://db.apache.org/jdo >>>>> 408 276-5638 mailto:craig.russ...@oracle.com >>>>> P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>>> >>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >>> >>> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: general-unsubscr...@incubator.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: general-h...@incubator.apache.org
