Surely there are no "actual instances" as yet, as this sub-thread's about the effect of the suggested "<scope>provided</scope>" if it were to be used...
/Gwyn On 16/03/07, Davanum Srinivas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Daniel, Before we take on the branding question. Can you please whip up some actual instances of where the ["less pleasant" for users of apache project] happened/reported? Let's get some clarity here on what is being done here...is it an effort to gain legitimacy w/o exiting incubation or really caring about end users or something else entirely. thanks, dims On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Friday 16 March 2007 10:06, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > > Incubator PMC will set guidelines for incubator projects and will set > > best practices (not obligatory) to other ASF projects. Everyone else > > can do what they want. > > Right, but that again defeats the whole point of having the incubator > repository. If other projects can easily bypass the requirement that > people "opt in" to incubator artifacts, then the users of those projects > still wouldn't know they are using incubator artifacts unless they look > at the dependencies report. For them, it would make no difference > whether the artifacts came from central or p.a.o. (other than the build > is slower coming from p.a.o) > > You basically make it "less pleasant" for users of apache projects, but > have no affect on others. Is that good for the Apache brand? > > Dan > > > > > > thanks, > > dims > > > > On 3/16/07, Daniel Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > So basically, the Incubator PMC now wants to start defining policies > > > to control the actions of other top level Apache projects on how > > > dependencies are made? > > > > > > What about projects at codehaus.org? How about sourceforge? > > > Google? ObjectWeb? > > > > > > I'll take Woden as an example. As pretty much the only pure java > > > WSDL 2.0 implementation, there's probably a bunch of projects > > > OUTSIDE of apache that will require it. Are you going to go and > > > tell them all they have to use <scope>provided</scope>? Isn't that > > > some sort of restriction that the ASL is supposed to prevent? > > > What's to stop them from ignoring you? Absolutely nothing. > > > Anyone that takes a dependency on those projects could/would get an > > > incubator artifact without explicitly asking for/authorizing it. > > > > > > Dan > > > > > > On Friday 16 March 2007 09:42, Davanum Srinivas wrote: > > > > Noel, > > > > > > > > Please see below: > > > > > > > > On 3/16/07, Noel J. Bergman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Davanum Srinivas wrote: > > > > > > Yes, If the apache projects like say Axis2 and Geronimo set up > > > > > > their pom's in a certain fashion (using m2's scope=provided > > > > > > mechanism), end users will have to add incubator repos > > > > > > explicitly/consciously and won't get podling jars pulled in > > > > > > w/o their knowledge. > > > > > > > > > > What's the burden imposed by this on the user? Does this mean > > > > > that we could eliminate the Incubator specific repository in > > > > > favor of <scope>provided</scope>? > > > > > > > > The burden on the user is that if he really wants to use that > > > > artifact, he/she should add it in their own pom's and add the > > > > repository also in their pom explicitly. > > > > > > > > > And is this an appropriate thing, since if Axis2 > > > > > or Geronimo do that, doesn't it mean that the jar is no longer > > > > > packaged with them when they release? > > > > > > > > No, this means that the dist may have the jars. We are focusing on > > > > stopping users from auto-magically pulling in incubator artifacts > > > > via m2 dependency mechansims w/o their cooperation. > > > > > > > > > Is that an issue? > > > > > > > > Depends on who you ask :) Right? > > > > > > > > > If the goals are to help protect users from a naive (as > > > > > contrasted with an informed) dependence on projects that haven't > > > > > yet earned their ASF-status, and to ensure that Incubator > > > > > projects aren't just trying to cash in on the ASF-brand without > > > > > adopting our methods, where are the appropriate lines of > > > > > control? > > > > > > > > We need to add some guidelines for how projects like Axis2 and > > > > Geronimo use incubator artifacts in addition to the guidelines in > > > > place for the Inucbator artifacts themselves. > > > > > > > > > If (for the sake of argument) WS decides to ship some Incubator > > > > > JAR as part of some WS release, and is supporting the release > > > > > are they counting on the Incubator JAR, or on you providing > > > > > certain functionality? > > > > > > > > They are counting on WS project. Case in point, woden is used for > > > > WSDL 2.0. If woden dies, Axis2 should come up with an alternative. > > > > For Geronimo, if cxf dies, there's always Axis2. FWIW, I really > > > > like how G balances rather juggles multiple options Tomcat/Jetty, > > > > Different flavors of JPA, Axis2/CXF etc. > > > > > > > > > Of course, that > > > > > ought to weigh into your own decision to include the JAR in the > > > > > first place. Would this be the same as a company using Roller in > > > > > production to sell a service while Roller was still in the > > > > > Incubator? A service purchaser is expecting a blog, but perhaps > > > > > not counting on how that functionality is provided. Should it > > > > > depend on whether the JAR's API is exposed, or simply some > > > > > functionality that you can maintain/replace? Again, reflecting > > > > > back on the goals. > > > > > > > > Yes, existing projects should exercise caution and plan for > > > > failures. > > > > > > > > > --- Noel > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > >---- - To unsubscribe, e-mail: > > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional > > > > > commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > -- > > > J. Daniel Kulp > > > Principal Engineer > > > IONA > > > P: 781-902-8727 C: 508-380-7194 > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > http://www.dankulp.com/blog > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > >- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- > J. Daniel Kulp > Principal Engineer > IONA > P: 781-902-8727 C: 508-380-7194 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.dankulp.com/blog > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- Davanum Srinivas :: http://wso2.org/ :: Oxygen for Web Services Developers --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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