Harry portobello wrote: > Hi all, > > I've been reading the fvwm list for ages and recently subscribed > because of the article I'm currently writing - so although I've not > been on this list very long I feel as though I am no stranger to it; > mail archives can be a great thing, even more since a lot of them are > made public. :) > > A few people have privately said to me lately that although they think > fvwm is a great program, they're not happy with the attitudes of the > most active maintainer, Thomas Adam. I won't be naming names, that's > not what's relevant here. But it's important to remember that words > are all we have in an email. There's no body language or tone of voice > to listen to. Sometimes the simplest of phrases might sound innocent > in person but take on a different meaning entirely when written down. > > Some of this admittedly depends on how well the reader knows the > person whose text they're reading; like anything if one reads > something as cheeky it's because they know the person well enough to > accept that's how they are. But that's not so often the case on > faceless individuals who collaborate on a project together, where the > only communication is email. > > Thomas, please give thought to how you phrase things because from what > I'm hearing you're endangering fvwm, scaring people away from > contributing. I hope that's not what you want - but it's the strong > impression I am feeling from certain replies. It's really important > that you stop and think about things because scaring people away just > isn't good enough. > > Maybe things would be easier if we (as a fvwm community) knew more > about you, for example. > > Harry
Hi! I think, I should explain something here, and I hope, I will do something useful with my explanations. I too had technical discussions on this list one year ago. I discovered fvwm relatively late, but, since one year, I use it every day. I'm so glad that fvwm exists, because fvwm is much much better than KDE and Gnome. My whole configuration is still a dirty quick hack, and I only slightly improved it during the last months. But even with such a dirty configuration I am running fvwm since August 2010, fvwm is much much better than anything else what I ever had seen or used on a computer. My productivity was increased to such an extend with my 144 desktops (12 pages x 12 desktops to be accurate) and my keyboard shortcuts. I even use fvwm to provide macros for my daily work: Position some special applications on some certain desktops with the right window sizes on the right position within each desktop when I press <Shift>+<Ctrl>+<Win>+<F7> for example; fill out web based login pages with test user and test password when I press a special hotkey combination; automatically place a complimentary close at the end of e-mail or bugzilla messages when I press one of my two hotkey conbinations (one for German and one for English). There are so much things fvwm does for me on daily basis that I never want to miss it. The persons on this list who cope with the German language, or who are able to use tools like translate.google.de, can read on one of my web pages about more details why I like fvwm: http://www.jumping-blue-turtle.com/online-shop/debian/fvwm/index.html Even some bugs (pager crashes sometimes when I do stupid things; subject line of bugzilla bugs do not appear in window title bars, because they contain UTF8 characters, ...) do not prevent me from using fvwm everyday, because the obstructions of KDE and/or Gnome are much much worse than that; and regarding fvwm, I always have the chance to report these bugs sometime when I have enough time to create easily reproducible bug reports. I think, it would be a real pity if a project like fvwm would not exist or would cease to exist. When I had technical discussions on this list one year ago, I noticed that the discussions with Thomas were not THAT easy. But: - I knew what kind of character I had to expect, because I read some very personal revelations about Thomas that Thomas wrote about his by himself on his web site "www.xteddy.org". Keyword "Social Anxiety". Very nice that someone gives me the chance to know what I have to expect before I start a conversation with a person. - He always tried to be helpful. - He always tried to understand my intentions. - I learned a lot. - He showed me ways how I could improve my dirty configuration. Unfortunataly, I had no time during the last 10 months, so I'm still working with my dirty configuration. But as soon as I have enough time again to improve my configuration, I will start with all the advices from Thomas that I still have in my mailbox. There is one thing that makes a big difference between fvwm and other environments like KDE or Gnome: - When I have problems with fvwm, then I know that there are solutions. I just have to invest my time to solve the issues, but currently I have a clear plan, what I will have to to once I have enough time: - create easily reproducible bug reports to investigate the current fvwm bugs - follow the instructions that I received from Thomas to make my configuration less dirty; more clean; more modern I think, when I take the time to tackle these problems, there could be a real chance that these problems could be solved or at least be understood. - When I have problems with KDE or Gnome on the other side, then I'm pretty sure that these problems are unsolveable: - KDE4 takes 60 seconds to start up? There will NEVER be a way to make KDE4 start up within 2 seconds like fvwm. - I need a keyboard shortcut for something that I'm tired of searching for it several times a day via mouse and/or cumbersome menus? I would have to lead long discussions with the developers about the topic why I need shortcuts and how shortcuts would make the system more complicated. - I want to switch off something that gets on my nerves? The same argumentation: Another option to switch some annoying "feature" off would make the system more complicated. So, why don't you get used to that "feature"? - There is a major bug in KDE or Gnome that prevents me from working? No problem! Simply upgrade to a newer version and replace this one major bug with three other major bugs that also will prevent you from doing things! So, I hope I made it clear why fvwm is such a valuable piece of software. A little bit I have the sence that Thomas Adam's attitude was, is and will be one of the causes why fvwm is that much different than other environments like KDE or Gnome. There is the hazard that when someone tries to adapt the attitude around fvwm into another direction that then also fvwm would change into another direction, for example to become more like KDE or Gnome. And this is an important point: I ran away from KDE and Gnome, because I am very frustrated with the result what KDE and Gnome became. The philsophy behind KDE and Gnome is not my philsophy anymore. I searched very long for a replacement and discovered fvwm, and at least I am aware that when I expect other results from a piece of software than more common software, then I cannot expect the same attitudes in the community that is around that special piece of software. This was the technical part of my explanation. ################################################## Now, I will have a focus on the more psychological aspect of Harry's observation. I'm a person who was part of very different societies in it's life. In some aspects of my life, I'm the technician (I studied computer science). In other aspects of my life, I'm the non-technician. I can work with managers as well as with programmers, and usually I'm the one who writes technical documentation or who does other things that requires the ability to think like a customer (not like a programmer), to be able to fetch the customer or the reader where he/she stands and carfully lead him/her to the technical world of software. Not every person is feeling at home in different types of society. Some persons are just technician, some other persons are just non-technicians. And what happens, when the world of a technician and the world of a non-technician collide with each other? I think, everyone knows ;-) OK, to be honest, there are a lot more models of classification; not always the reality can be satisfyingly described using the model of technician/non-technician. Another model is this: - one society is dominated by diplomatic attitudes - one other society is dominated by downright honest attitudes If a member of a diplomatic dominated society comes into a honest dominated society, then this person feels offended by the flood of truth that strikes into his/her face. If a member of a honest dominated society comes into a diplomatic dominated society, then this person may become bored of the prevalent beating about the bush, says something more straight than he/she should do it, and gets isolated, because he/she seems to be a very inconvenient person in this society. Yet another thing is that some people actually are offending in their daily behaviour. I also met this kind of people in my life and had to work with them. When I compare these people with Thomas, then I have to ascertain that Thomas is not offensive, not intentionally. I would classify Thomas as a technician and as honest; as a honest technician ;-) Is there a solution about the tensions that inevitably occur when people with different views of life encounter each other? Yes! There is a solution. There is one term. It is called "explaining"! During the last years I found out a strategy how to deal with offensive people in a team: I just have to wait for the next offensive action. When it occurs, I analyse it, and then I EXPLAIN the offender: - why this action was bad - how I felt on the other end of the channel that transported the offence from him/her to me - how this action interferes with the teamwork (with the efficiency of the whole team) - what more diplomatic kind of action alternative the offender could have chosen to achieve what he/she actually tried to achieve (if there was a reason for the offence at all) Some people simply do not think about the consequences that their actions cause. When somebody very patiently takes the time to explain them all relevant aspects of the consequences and to show them the appropriate action alternatives, then during the time, the offenders start a learning process in their head. And gradually they change their attitude and behaviour. And, this is very important! They do not change their attitude and behaviour, because someone asked them to do so! They change their attitude and behaviour, because they UNDERSTOOD. There must be a series of EXPLAINING and GRADUALLY UNDERSTANDING. I use upper case letters, because I want to highlight these important terms. Please don't feel offended by this ;-) What does this mean for the people who are interacting on this mailing list? * If Thomas Adams wants to improve something (if at all), then Thomas has the OPTIONS to explain his behaviour a bit more and to be more diplomatic than usual. But since Thomas' attitude seems to be a rather honest attitude, rather trying to help than trying to offend anyway, I think, there are not much things that Thomas could do differently. What we need, are concrete examples in the daily life. I suppose that Thomas always wants to be as helpful as possible. Nobody needs to explain him that it would be better if he would try to be more helpful. He _IS_ trying. This is a classic case that Thomas is one of the nearly 6 billion persons on this planet who are not a trained diplomat by trade. His job is not to be the foreign minister of a country. He is simply a brilliant technican. He became this, because he specialized into something very useful. * So, because Thomas already _IS_ trying to be helpful, there is only the possibility of applying the priciple of EXPLAINING and GRADUALLY UNDERSTANDING. I encourage people who feel confused by something that Thomas writes to think about this. This is not the invitation to leave the community, but it is rather an opportunity to make a conversation. A conversation with an open end. Ideally, both partners of the conversation will learn something. And, if there was actually something wrong in Thomas' behaviour, then this is the chance to do something useful for Thomas in return: Let him understand an aspect that he didn't see in that point of view before. Some people have more diplomatic skills than technical skills, and they can use their diplomatic skills to improve their technical skills. Some other people (like Thomas) have more technical skills than diplomatic skills, and when they teach their technical knowledge to other people, then in this way they have the chance to improve their diplomatic skills. * When some people feel confused by some kind of attitude in the fvwm community, then perhaps they are not patient enough anyway, maybe they are not interested about the difference between fvwm on one side and KDE/Gnome on the other side. Perhaps, they are happy enough with KDE, Gnome, Windows, Apple or whatever. Is it a goal of the fvwm community to persuade the rest of the world to use fvwm at any price? I think, if the price would be to turn fvwm into something like KDE, Gnome, Windows or Apple, then the fvwm community should rather focus on the task to keep fvwm what it is and to improve it without making it worse over the next decades. I assume there is a coherence between the product of fvwm and the attitude in the fvwm community. * An idea that could make a difference for new people who think about joining the fvwm community could be this: - Someone should write an introduction for newbies and put this introduction onto "www.fvwm.org". This introduction should: - EXPLAIN the difference between fvwm and other environments - EXPLAIN the prevalent honest attitude in the fvwm community - EXPLAIN the priciple of EXPLAINING and GRADUALLY UNDERSTANDING * (when two people are in a dispute, then the chance to elegantly solve the dispute increases dramatically when both persons try to explain and understand each other) - invite people to apply this principle when they feel confused by something And now, I have a job for you, Harry Portobello. Do you want to to something really useful for fvwm? Then, please: * Create an introduction for newbies like I described above. * Try to design it in an appropriate style so that someone from the fvwm community actually would put it onto "www.fvwm.org" * Try to phrase it as good as possible. Make it easy to read and easy to understand. * Then, post a draft in this mailing list, and let the community discuss about it. When your introduction is convincing enough, then perhaps someone actually would take your ready introduction and put it onto "www.fvwm.org" Michael
