Maybe, if the training data, training method, prompt, & reasoning are included
in the output. Without the reasoning, though, there's no way to tell slop from a
counter-intuitive or non-consensus result. I suppose one could be traded for the
other in some cases. Training data and method are analogous to expertise. So if an
expert in ancient philosophy and a rando on the street are being compared, then the
rando needs more reasoning than the expert. But if 2 experts are compared, maybe
one in ancient Greece and the other in ancient Rome, then the prompt/context is
prolly most important. Prompt such experts in the right way, they'll prolly give
the same answer.
On 2/4/25 3:01 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I think the Wassertein metric might be a good choice for quantifying whether a LLM or a
human is providing "slop" in a given conversation between agents.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Tuesday, February 4, 2025 1:36 PM
To: friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Diogenes, the Cynic ...
Claude is available here: https://www.anthropic.com/
Dave's interpretation rings true to me. But as long as we're polluting the list
with AI slop, here's Tulu3's answers followed by Llama3's answers.
⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧ 1st prompt:
1. **Searching for Honesty**: The most direct interpretation of the metaphor is
that Diogenes used the lantern to symbolically search for an honest man among
his contemporaries, even in broad daylight when a lantern would typically be
unnecessary. His action suggests that honesty was so rare and hard to find that
it required deliberate effort and intense scrutiny to discover.
2. **Illumination of Truth**: The lantern can also represent the light of truth
or wisdom. Diogenes's act of holding up the lantern in broad daylight implies
that even though there is plenty of literal light (knowledge, understanding),
the figurative darkness (ignorance, deception) around him still required a
special tool to illuminate it.
3. **Contrarian Approach**: The Cynics were known for their contrarian approach
and disdain for societal conventions. By using a lantern during daytime,
Diogenes is engaging in deliberate theatricality, drawing attention to his
quest and perhaps provoking others to examine their own honesty.
4. **Exposing Hypocrisy**: Another layer of meaning could be that the lantern
serves as a tool to expose hypocrisy. In searching with a lantern, Diogenes
implies that the truth about people's characters is hidden and obscured by lies
or social niceties, requiring an extra effort to unveil it.
5. **Satirical Critique**: The act can also be seen as satire – a humorous yet
sharp critique of Athenian society. By implying that he needed a lantern in
daylight, Diogenes was making a satirical statement about how dark and morally
bankrupt the city had become.
6. **Self-Reflection**: On a deeper level, the lantern could also symbolize
introspection. Although Diogenes is depicted as searching outwardly, his quest
might be seen as an invitation for others to turn inward and examine their own
moral compass.
7. **Hope in Darkness**: Finally, carrying a lantern in daylight can symbolize
hope – the belief that even in a world where honesty seems to be absent,
there's still a chance of finding it. Diogenes’s act might suggest that despite
the darkness around him, he remains hopeful and determined to find genuine
virtue.
In sum, Diogenes' use of the lantern is a powerful metaphor for the pursuit of
truth, integrity, and wisdom in a world clouded by deception and moral decay.
His actions challenged his contemporaries to reflect on their own values and
inspired generations afterward to consider what it means to live an honest life.
⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧ 2nd prompt:
1. **Mockery of Philosophers**: According to this interpretation, Diogenes wasn't just
making a statement about societal dishonesty; he was also ridiculing philosophers who
claim to possess special knowledge or enlightenment. By using the lantern in broad
daylight—a seemingly absurd action—he is suggesting that their "enlightened
search" for truth and virtue is futile or self-important.
2. **Vanity of 'Enlightened' Search**: The phrase "vanity of 'enlightened'
search" implies that Diogenes saw the philosophical pursuit as overly proud,
conceited, and ultimately empty. He might have been questioning whether these
philosophers were truly any closer to finding honesty or virtue than anyone else.
3. **Cynical Perspective on Philosophy**: As a Cynic philosopher himself,
Diogenes would often reject conventional norms and values, including the
pretensions of intellectual superiority held by many of his contemporaries.
This act with the lantern could therefore be a form of performative criticism
aimed at showcasing what he saw as the arrogance and delusion inherent in
philosophical pursuits.
4. **Distinction between Philosophers and Athenians**: By suggesting that
Diogenes was mocking philosophers rather than Athenians, the commenter is
drawing a distinction between the intellectual elite (who might have claimed to
be on an 'enlightened' path) and the general populace of Athens. The act
becomes less about societal morality and more about philosophical hypocrisy.
5. **Philosophical Absurdity**: From this perspective, Diogenes' use of the
lantern serves as a visual metaphor for what he perceived as the absurdity of
philosophical endeavors—namely, that they often led philosophers to overlook
simple truths accessible to anyone or engaged them in searches so obscure and
convoluted that they lost sight of reality.
In essence, the commenter sees Diogenes' act not only as an indictment of
dishonesty within Athenian society but also as a pointed jab at the
philosophical community for their pretentiousness and detachment from everyday
life. This interpretation adds another layer to the symbolic meaning behind
Diogenes' famous search with his lantern, positioning it as both a social
critique and a metacritique of the intellectual elite's self-perception.
And while we're at it, we may as well ask Lllama3 too:
⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧ 1st prompt:
1. **Literal impossibility**: Diogenes is searching for something (an honest
man) in a way that seems absurd and futile, much like using a lantern to find
something in broad daylight when the light is already plentiful. This
highlights the rarity and elusiveness of genuine honesty.
2. **Illumination of darkness**: A lantern typically provides light in dark or
obscure environments. By carrying it in broad daylight, Diogenes implies that
the moral landscape of Athens is shrouded in darkness, despite the physical
presence of sunlight. He's suggesting that the city is morally corrupt and that
true honesty is hard to find.
3. **Search for authenticity**: The lantern represents Diogenes' quest for
authenticity and his desire to shed light on the genuine article – an honest
man. In a world where hypocrisy and deceit are rampant, he's searching for
someone who embodies integrity and transparency.
4. **Critique of societal norms**: By carrying a lantern in daylight, Diogenes
is also commenting on the superficiality of Athenian society. He's implying
that people may appear virtuous on the surface but are actually lacking in
moral character. The lantern serves as a symbol of his desire to penetrate this
façade and expose the truth.
5. **Satire and social commentary**: The image of Diogenes with a lantern is
also a form of satire, meant to ridicule the excesses and pretensions of
ancient Athenian society. By using a lantern in broad daylight, he's making a
humorous yet pointed critique of the city's moral decay.
In summary, the lantern in this passage is a metaphor for:
* The rarity and elusiveness of genuine honesty
* The need to illuminate the darkness of moral corruption
* The search for authenticity and integrity in a society that often values
appearances over reality
* A critique of societal norms and the superficiality of human behavior
* A satirical commentary on the excesses and pretensions of ancient Athenian
society.
⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧⛧ 2nd prompt:
The commenter is offering a nuanced interpretation of Diogenes' actions with
the lantern. They're suggesting that the traditional understanding of this
anecdote – that Diogenes was searching for an honest man to highlight the
dishonesty of Athenians – might be incomplete or even misguided.
Instead, the commenter proposes that Diogenes' action was a commentary on the futility of
philosophical inquiry and the concept of "enlightenment" itself. By carrying a
lantern in broad daylight, Diogenes is mocking the idea that philosophers can find truth
or wisdom through rational inquiry alone.
The phrase "vanity of 'enlightened' search" is key to this interpretation. The
commenter is implying that Diogenes is poking fun at the notion that philosophers can
achieve enlightenment or discover profound truths through their searches, debates, and
intellectual pursuits. In other words, Diogenes is suggesting that the pursuit of wisdom
and knowledge can be an exercise in futility, a form of intellectual hubris.
By saying "Diogenes was mocking philosophers, not Athenians," the commenter is
shifting the focus from the supposed dishonesty of the general population to the
pretensions of the philosophical community. This reading suggests that Diogenes' action
was a critique of the intellectual elite, rather than a commentary on the moral character
of ordinary people.
This interpretation highlights the complexity and ambiguity of Diogenes'
actions, which were likely intended to be provocative and open to multiple
interpretations. The commenter's perspective adds another layer of depth to our
understanding of this famous anecdote, encouraging us to consider the ways in
which Diogenes might have been challenging the dominant intellectual and
philosophical discourses of his time.
On 2/4/25 12:32 PM, Prof David West wrote:
that Diogenes was looking for "an honest" man is a modern interpretation. The original
texts say simply, "a man."
In either case, he was mocking no one, neither philosophers nor Athenians.
Because so little of his original work, and that of his mentor Anisthenes,
survives it is speculative—but, many would consider Diogenes to be a
quasi-mystic. His philosophy might be interpreted:
1) There is an 'essence' that defines what it is to be human.
2) In order to fully embody (realize) this essence, you need to strip away all and
every "thing' that disguises this essence—hence the vow of poverty; tossing his
wooden bowl when he realized he could drink from cupped hand; and dismissal of
convention—eating, sleeping, masturbating, defecating ... in public.
3) the only important thing a person could do would be to seek one's essence,
to fully become human.
4) Laws, mores, customs, language, and philosophy are totally superfluous to
this quest, just as a lantern in daylight.
4) could be interpreted as 'mocking', I suppose, but for Diogenes is was simply
a statement of fact; albeit as metaphor.
davew
On Tue, Feb 4, 2025, at 1:42 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
... wandered the streets of Athens with a lantern, in broad daylight, looking for an
honest man. This act was supposed to ironically demonstrate the dishonest of Athenians.
To me, it seems more to demonstrate the vanity of "enlighted" search. In other
words, Diogenes was mocking philosophers, not Athenians.
Can anybody help me with this metaphor, or is my inquiry just an example of
itself.
--
¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ
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