The style of ChatGPT or Claude or others are just default engineered
styles that provide efficient responses. Noticing it is identifiable
is like noticing that a document was written using stock LaTeX.
Incidentally, I’ve noticed Claude is prone to going down rabbit holes
when debugging code. It’s not a terrible approach to software
development, or for that matter housecleaning. If something,
anything, is out of order, put it in order. While the context of the
whole conversation is there and it is easy to get back on track, I
find I must nudge it to pop the stack with questions like “Do you
think fixing this bug could be relevant to the larger goal?” So
long as conversation lengths are constrained, it would make customers
happier if they tried harder to infer the user’s goal and go off on
tangents.
Marcus
*From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Barry MacKichan
*Sent:* Thursday, January 23, 2025 7:50 AM
*To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
<friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] May you live in interesting times
So we need an LLM to determine if the Turing test has been passed? I
detect recursion, or as it is commonly called, a rabbit hole.
* Barry
On 22 Jan 2025, at 20:27, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I was addressing the mistaken claim that using a LLM create
content is easy to detect. It would require some thoughtful setup
work and testing, but that could be more fun and educational than
writing the content directly.
*From:*Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of glen
<geprope...@gmail.com>
*Date:* Wednesday, January 22, 2025 at 5:06 PM
*To:* friam@redfish.com <friam@redfish.com>
*Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] May you live in interesting times
I bet it can't simulate Marcus. Because most of Marcus' posts are
one liners, often with some ironic twist that I'm sure is there,
but evades me. I guess if you have enough one liners to provide
examples, then restrict the response to only a few tokens, that
might work. But you'd prolly also have to get it to iterate a
couple of times... Generate a wordy 0th response, feed that back
in to generate a less wordy 1st response, etc. ... maybe for 3-5
iterates. Then post the last one of only 5 words ... and maybe
followed by a random picture from the internet or a link to an
Atlantic article. >8^D
I think Gillian would also be difficult to simulate. It would be
pretty cool to classify everyone according to how well they could
be simulated. Of course, there's a disconnect between the
validator and the referent. Just because everyone other than P
agrees that person (P) is well-simulated doesn't mean the
simulator fully expresses any deeper or interpolated meaning P
steganographically hid in the carrier message. What's that line by
the Butthole Surfers? "Ya never know just how you look through
other people's eyes."
On 1/22/25 12:59 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Easy to avoid this problem.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2025 1:04 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] May you live in interesting times
>
> two things:
>
> 1) isn't it interesting that human beings, with only a short
exposure to LLM generated text can instantly spot 'suspicious' and
'likely-LLM-sourced' writing. Not just glen, but all of my
university professor friends can spot and know with certainty that
LLM generated test answers or papers are exactly that. The only
problem they have is the bureaucratic procedures required to hold
a student accountable and the fact that Deans, determined to
retain students, almost always give student's the benefit of the
doubt. It seems to me that ChatGPT, Grok, Claude, et. al. are
failing the Turing test in a most obvious manner.
>
> 2) Free Speech. Why is all the focus on the speaker? Exactly
what difference does it make what the preacher says, even if using
a megaphone, if no one is on the corner listening? True, if I am
an office worker at my desk, with no option to work from home, and
the megaphone results in my being, more or less, compelled to
listen; there is an issue. Solution is to take away the megaphone,
nothing more. My right to speak is protected; there is not right
to compel others to listen to me.
>
> in the case of X, I would argue that there is no compulsion to
listen, so no issues of free speech. I am less certain about
Facebook or Tik Tok, mostly because they have become such
"attractive nuisances" that there is some degree of compulsion.
But the solution is not control of the speech per se, it is
holding the platforms to the same legal liability as a person who
puts in a pool and someone drowns. The homeowner is liable for
building the attractive nuisance; even if the homeowner put up a
fence and even if the person trespassed.
>
> davew
>
> On Wed, Jan 22, 2025, at 2:26 PM, glen wrote:
>
> > I hope I'm wrong. But that text reads like it was generated
by an LLM.
>
> > My point was that artifacts like Section 230 are NOT about
free speech
>
> > in any way, fashion, or form. Free speech is an individual
right that
>
> > is meaningless in the context of platform moderation. Using
"section
>
> > 230" and "free speech" in the same context is non sequitur.
>
> >
>
> > Another analogy is to the public square (not the "town
square"). You
>
> > can be trespassed from public spaces, even though they're public.
>
> > While this typically happens from "disorderly behavior", it
could also
>
> > happen from "free speech". Elno Musk's vision for X is simply to
>
> > manipulate the zeitgeist to his benefit, no more, no less. Any
>
> > pretense he's doing this for some *public* good is so
obviously false,
>
> > I can't believe you (or even Grok) might believe it.
>
> >
>
> > Of course, the libertarian principle is that if there exists
a Good,
>
> > the best path to it is through the diversity of visions and
pursuits
>
> > ... collective "action" through individuality. Bizarre paths of
>
> > failure do tiny bits of damage and fall away while pursuits and
>
> > visions with merit succeed or gain a (cult) following. But
even here,
>
> > Elno doesn't fit. He's got too much money, "controls" too
much stuff.
>
> > He's no longer an individual. He's an institution. And, in
the same
>
> > way that corporations shouldn't have free speech, Elno should
have NO
>
> > individual rights because he's not an individual.
>
> >
>
> > On 1/22/25 12:04 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> >> There are multiple dimensions to the issue of free speech,
especially when it comes to the transition from individual
expression to distribution by platforms like X:
>
> >>
>
> >> Responsibility for Content Distribution:
>
> >> You raise a valid question regarding who is responsible when
a platform distributes content: the individual who created the
content or the platform that disseminates it? The answer isn't
straightforward due to legal and ethical complexities. If the
speech in question violates laws, such as defamation, the
responsibility might legally fall on the individual speaker.
However, platforms can also be held accountable, especially under
laws like Section 230 in the U.S., which currently grants them
immunity from being treated as the publisher or speaker of
user-generated content under certain conditions. This legal shield
is often debated, particularly in contexts where platforms are
seen to amplify or moderate content in ways that influence public
discourse.
>
> >>
>
> >> The Megaphone Analogy:
>
> >> Your analogy of a street preacher with a megaphone is
insightful. It highlights that while the content (the message
about God) originates from the individual, the distribution (the
megaphone) can amplify its reach and impact. Here, one might argue
that the responsibility for any harm caused could be shared
between the content creator and the tool's provider or user,
depending on how the distribution is managed. This analogy
underscores that free speech isn't just about what is said but
also how it's broadcasted.
>
> >>
>
> >> Comparing Distribution of Rights:
>
> >> Your comparison to the ownership and use of handguns versus
drones with missiles further illustrates the point about
distribution. Just as there are restrictions on certain weapons
due to their potential for harm, the distribution of speech
through powerful platforms might necessitate similar
considerations. The key difference here lies in the scale and
potential impact of distribution. While a handgun's harm is
immediate and localized, a drone's capability could affect a
broader area or population, akin to how widespread distribution
via social media can influence societal norms or politics.
>
> >>
>
> >> The Role of External Pressures:
>
> >> Another layer to consider is the influence of external
forces, like government or "deep state" actors, on media
companies. The example of the Hunter Biden laptop story suggests a
scenario where free speech could be curtailed not by the platforms
themselves but by external coercion. Elon Musk's vision for X
seems to promise resistance to such pressures, aiming to uphold
free speech by not succumbing to external dictates on what content
should or shouldn't be shared.
>
> >>
>
> >> In essence, while the core principle of free speech focuses
on the individual's right to express themselves, the reality of
modern communication involves platforms that significantly alter
the reach and impact of that speech. The promotion of free speech
from individual to distributor involves navigating these new
dimensions of responsibility, ethics, and law. The question isn't
just whether free speech should be promoted but how it should be
managed in an age where distribution can exponentially increase
its effects, both positive and negative.
>
> >>
>
> >> On Wed, 22 Jan 2025 at 20:35, glen <geprope...@gmail.com
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com%20%3cmailto:geprope...@gmail.com
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com%20%3cmailto:geprope...@gmail.com>>>>
wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> I'm confused by this promotion of "free speech" from the
individual to a platform. When X (or this mailing list)
*distributes* my text, who is ultimately responsible for that
distribution? Me? Or X/redfish.com <http://redfish.com
<http://redfish.com>>?
>
> >>
>
> >> The distribution of some content is not what I'd call
"free speech". Maybe we could make an analogy to a megaphone.
Let's say some street preacher is shouting about God (content)
through a megaphone (distribution). And let's say your hearing is
damaged by that megaphone (distribution). Efficient cause suggests
it's the preacher's fault - or maybe your fault for standing so
close. Material/proximal cause suggests it's the megaphone's fault
(or the manufacturer of the megaphone). But regardless of where
any one person lands in answering that question, everyone should
admit that the content is not the same as the distribution.
>
> >>
>
> >> A similar argument can be made about the difference
between, say, a handgun and a drone carrying a hellfire missile.
Should my neighbor Randy be allowed to own (and/or carry into the
sandwich shop) a handgun? Sure, it's right there in the Bill of
Rights. But should Randy be flying hellfire-laden drones around in
Seattle airspace? No, probably not. What's different about those
questions? My answer is *distribution*, distribution of the threat
(flying around) and distribution of the damage (missile vs. lead
slug).
>
> >>
>
> >> Why is the promotion of free speech from individual to
distribut[or|ion] any different from that of other rights?
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> On 1/21/25 10:27 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> >> >
>
> >> > Regarding free speech, I acknowledge its drawbacks,
but what are the alternatives? During the Biden administration,
there were allegations of pressure on media to promote a certain
narrative, notably around the Hunter Biden laptop story where 51
former intelligence officials wrongly suggested it might be
Russian disinformation to influence the 2020 election outcome.
This incident illustrates the dangers of having moderators decide
what is true if those moderators are not guaranteed to be
objective and neutral.
>
> >> >
>
> >> > The debate on free speech versus moderated content is
complex. While there are clear pros and cons, I believe that Elon
Musk's approach to free speech on the X platform (formerly
Twitter) is preferable to a system where moderation is evidently
biased, as it was before Musk's acquisition of the platform.
However, the effectiveness of his free speech policies is still a
topic of debate among users, with some arguing that the platform's
moderation has become less about curating content for truthfulness
and more about enabling a broader, sometimes unchecked, range of
opinions.
>
--
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