I know most (all?) of you don't care. But here's a conversation with Claude 
starting with the same prompt Pieter used with GPT. It's sad that I had to 
*feed* the answer to Claude. The summary I posted earlier prompted with 
Leitgeb's entire paper. Such prompt-responses tend to be more trustworthy 
because the context is right there in the prompt. But clearly neither Claude 
nor GPT could tell (or cared to tell?) that Ramsey Semantics is *meta*. Is it 
bullsh¡t or condescension? 8^D Anyway, here it is:

me: "Please compare in one relatively short paragraph Ramsey semantics and fuzzy 
logic."

claude-3.5-sonnet: "Ramsey semantics and fuzzy logic are two different approaches to 
handling uncertainty and truth values in logic, but they operate on fundamentally 
different principles. Ramsey semantics, developed by Frank Ramsey, deals with conditional 
statements and their truth values based on belief updating and probability, focusing on 
how we should change our beliefs when we learn new information. In contrast, fuzzy logic, 
introduced by Lotfi Zadeh, allows for partial truth values between 0 and 1, rather than 
just true or false, making it particularly useful for handling vague or imprecise 
information where propositions can be partially true. While Ramsey semantics is more 
closely tied to probability theory and belief revision, fuzzy logic is more concerned 
with representing and reasoning about gradual properties and continuous-valued 
logic."

me: "Given this footnote from Hannes Leitgeb's paper entitled Ramsification and 
Semantic Indeterminacy: 'This motivation for Ramsifying classical semantics is orthogonal 
to instrumentalist or functionalist motivations: the point of Ramsey semantics is neither 
to show that talk of interpretation is merely instrumental nor to convey insights into 
the ‘nature’ of truth, but to deal with semantic indeterminacy. In contrast, e.g., 
Wright’s [85] paper on Ramsification and monism-vs.-pluralism-about-truth does not apply 
Ramsification for the sake of doing semantics and in fact presupposes semantic 
determinacy (see [85], p. 272).' How would you change the above answer?"

claude-3.5-sonnet: "Here's a revised comparison that better reflects Leitgeb's 
point:  Ramsey semantics and fuzzy logic represent different approaches to handling 
semantic uncertainty, but with distinct purposes and frameworks. Ramsey semantics, as 
Leitgeb emphasizes, is specifically aimed at dealing with semantic indeterminacy in 
classical semantics, rather than serving instrumentalist or functionalist goals about the 
nature of truth. Fuzzy logic, on the other hand, introduced by Lotfi Zadeh, provides a 
framework for handling vagueness through partial truth values between 0 and 1, operating 
within a determined semantic framework. While both approaches deal with forms of 
uncertainty, Ramsey semantics addresses fundamental semantic indeterminacy in classical 
logic, whereas fuzzy logic works within established semantic frameworks to handle gradual 
or imprecise truth values."

me: "OK. That's better. But what still seems to be missing is that Ramsey Semantics 
and Fuzzy Logic are entirely different things and comparing them seems like a category 
error. Ramsey Semantics is about schematic predicates where some conditions are not 
satisfied (e.g. square root of -1, which is undefined). Fuzzy Logic is about continuous 
values to true-false predicates assuming the predicate and all its conditions are 
well-defined. Perhaps we might say Ramsey Semantics is meta-logical whereas Fuzzy Logic 
is merely logical?"

claude-3.5-sonnet: "Yes, you've identified a crucial distinction I failed to 
capture. Here's a better comparison that acknowledges their fundamental difference:  
Comparing Ramsey semantics and fuzzy logic directly is somewhat of a category error, as 
they operate at different logical levels and address entirely different concerns. Ramsey 
semantics is a meta-logical framework dealing with semantic indeterminacy where 
predicates or conditions are undefined or not fully satisfied (like the square root of 
-1), focusing on the very meaning and interpretation of logical statements. Fuzzy logic, 
in contrast, operates at the logical level, providing a calculus for handling degrees of 
truth in well-defined predicates where all conditions are satisfied but truth values can 
be continuous rather than binary. While both deal with forms of uncertainty, they do so 
in fundamentally different domains: Ramsey semantics addresses meta-logical questions 
about meaning and interpretation, while fuzzy logic provides tools for reasoning about 
gradual truth values within an already well-defined semantic framework."


On 12/12/24 22:36, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
This is such an intriguing discussion, but regrettably, I don’t have the time to engage 
fully. I do, however, want to quickly address Glen's question to me from way back at the 
start of this thread about my prompt on Ramsey semantics and fuzzy logic. My prompt to 
ChatGPT was: "Please compare in one relatively short paragraph Ramsey semantics and 
fuzzy logic."

On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 at 16:20, glen <geprope...@gmail.com 
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

    Interesting. What was your prompt?

    It's important to remember that Claude and GPT are prone to bullsh¡t. When 
asked to compare apples to oranges, they will happily and confidently make the 
comparison even if it's a category error. Leitgeb's footnote might be of use:

    "This motivation for Ramsifying classical semantics is orthogonal to 
instrumentalist or
    functionalist motivations: the point of Ramsey semantics is neither to show 
that talk of
    interpretation is merely instrumental nor to convey insights into the 
‘nature’ of truth, but
    to deal with semantic indeterminacy. In contrast, e.g., Wright’s [85] paper 
on Ramsification
    and monism-vs.-pluralism-about-truth does not apply Ramsification for the 
sake of doing
    semantics and in fact presupposes semantic determinacy (see [85], p. 272)."

    where [85] is:

    Wright, C. (2010). Truth, Ramsification, and the pluralist’s revenge. 
Australasian Journal of Philosophy, 88(2), 265–283. 
https://philpapers.org/archive/writra.pdf 
<https://philpapers.org/archive/writra.pdf>

    On 12/11/24 21:55, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
     > Different strokes for different okes, indeed. In my realm of AI — and 
previously in control systems — fuzzy logic has been the trusty spanner for 
tackling vagueness. Seeking a fresh perspective, I turned to ChatGPT, which 
delivered this thoughtful comparison:
     >
     > "Ramsey semantics and fuzzy logic both grapple with vagueness but chart 
fundamentally different courses. Ramsey semantics clings to the rigorous shores of classical 
logic and binary truth values (true/false), navigating semantic indeterminacy by emphasizing 
the roles terms occupy rather than insisting on their precision, making it a philosophical 
and theoretical endeavor. Meanwhile, fuzzy logic boldly abandons binary constraints, 
introducing gradations of truth (e.g., 0.3 or 0.7), rendering it an elegant mathematical 
tool for practical domains like control systems and AI. Where Ramsey semantics contemplates 
the hazy edges of meaning, fuzzy logic quantifies vagueness as a smooth gradient between 
truth and falsehood."
     >
     > I must admit, ChatGPT's knack for juxtaposing the lofty with the 
practical was a pleasant surprise—perhaps an unintended nod to my eclectic career 
path!
     >
     > On Thu, 12 Dec 2024 at 02:45, glen <geprope...@gmail.com <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com> 
<mailto:geprope...@gmail.com <mailto:geprope...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
     >
     >
     > https://philpapers.org/rec/LEIRAS-3 <https://philpapers.org/rec/LEIRAS-3> 
<https://philpapers.org/rec/LEIRAS-3 <https://philpapers.org/rec/LEIRAS-3>>
     >
     >     via https://mastodon.social/@dailyn...@zirk.us 
<https://mastodon.social/@dailyn...@zirk.us> <https://mastodon.social/@dailyn...@zirk.us 
<https://mastodon.social/@dailyn...@zirk.us>>
     >
     >     I found this paper by Weinberg's post to Mastodon through the write 
up of Leitbeg's projects here:
     > https://gepris.dfg.de/gepris/person/85399322?language=en 
<https://gepris.dfg.de/gepris/person/85399322?language=en> 
<https://gepris.dfg.de/gepris/person/85399322?language=en 
<https://gepris.dfg.de/gepris/person/85399322?language=en>>
     >     I didn't find any papers on scholar or philpapers talking directly 
about the reference patterns of paradox through graph theory. But both his 
composition of similarity and non-eliminative structuralism were graph heavy. Good 
stuff. I have yet to read the ramsification paper. But, as usual, here's Claude's 
summary of it:
     >
     >      > - Classical semantics presupposes the existence of a unique 
factually determined intended interpretation of a language. However, there are 
reasons to doubt this presupposition holds in general, due to phenomena like 
vagueness, structuralism in mathematics, and theory change in science.
     >      >
     >      > - The author proposes Ramsey semantics as an alternative that 
avoids presupposing a unique intended interpretation. Instead, it merely postulates 
the existence of an admissible interpretation from which truth is defined classically.
     >      >
     >      > - Formally, Ramsey semantics replaces the intended interpretation I in 
classical semantics with an epsilon term εF(F∈Adm) that "picks" an interpretation 
from the class Adm of admissible interpretations. Truth is then defined relative to this 
interpretation.
     >      >
     >      > - Ramsey semantics preserves the key features of classical 
semantics - classical logic, a classical concept of truth, compositionality, 
bivalence, etc. But it allows the intended interpretation to be indeterminate when 
Adm contains more than one member.
     >      >
     >      > - The author argues Ramsey semantics is closer to classical 
semantics than supervaluationism while still allowing semantic indeterminacy. It 
provides reasonable treatments of the Sorites paradox, higher-order vagueness, and 
interpretational continuity between theories.
     >      >
     >      > - Overall, Ramsey semantics aims to capture the advantages of 
classical semantics while being less risky, by not presupposing semantic determinacy. 
It shows how semantic indeterminacy can be reconciled with an otherwise classical 
approach to meaning and truth.
--
--
¡sıɹƎ ןıɐH ⊥ ɐןןǝdoɹ ǝ uǝןƃ
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