Re: effing the ineffable - I've Just been listening to Douglas
Hofstadter's latest book/, //Surfaces and Essences: Analogy as the Fuel
and Fire of Thinking /and trying to resolve it against my recent
thoughts and readings around adjacent possibles, and assembly theoretic
models of life, the universe and everything.
Spatial and topological Pattern
formation/projection/matching/gesturing/interpolating/extrapolating?
As a strange coincidence I am now reading (listening to) Will and Ariel
Durant's The Lesson's of History which opened with a very assembly
theoretic observation: "The present is all of history rolled up to
facilitate action while history is the way we roll up the past to
understand the present" (or somesuch)...
I suspect for the more hard-core Math/CS folks here there is a Godelian
argument to be made for analog/biological machines (e.g. Human Nervous
system with or without Broca's Area) being capable of generating
complexity that exceeds (exponentially, geometrically?) the complexity
of a similar amount of matter/energy engaged in digital combinatorics?
-mumble-
- Steve
BTW: in reference to the actual thread Subject... I was very disturbed
by the first hour of the 9 hour drop of Neuralink podcast Lex just
made... specifically Musk's talk about Trump and Lex's polite deference
to Musk (aka elno). The bigger picture of Neuralink progress is pretty
impressive both from the technological implications of minituarizing all
that stuff to operate in a biologically active/corrosive environment
wirelessly and then obtaining a fascinating hybrid between biological
neural nets and digital ones... and as someone with one foot (hip) into
cyborgia... I refer you to:
Machine Man/by Max Barry//. This novel follows the character Charlie
Neumann, an engineer who, after losing a leg in an industrial
accident, begins to replace parts of his body with high-tech
prosthetics. This leads to a series of deliberate amputations and
enhancements as he becomes obsessed with the idea of upgrading his
body beyond its natural limitations. The book explores themes of
identity, technology, and the implications of modifying the human
body///
/
/
On 8/5/24 9:21 AM, Prof David West wrote:
Minor comment from a :metaphor obsessed colleague." I am teaching an honors course
at the University of St. Thomas in the spring: Effing the Ineffable, with a colleague who
teaches Theology. The basic premise: you just had this extraordinary experience and you
want to communicate/share it with others. How do you do so?" Metaphor, obviously.
Case studies will cover a spectrum from Michael Jordan-like "in the zone" experiences to acid trips
to Moses and the burning bush to J. Smith and the golden plates. We are undecided if we dare include Mohamed
as a case study even though all other religions and mystical traditions are fair game. One thread in the
acid-trip area is how contemporary science has provide a host of new metaphors from the realm of physics,
etc. that can be utilized to provide a more "accurate" or "satisfying" Effing.
davew
On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, at 9:07 AM, glen wrote:
These are all fine propositions. But, as you point out, sacrificing his
status doesn't rationally add up. Snyder's proposing a solution to
that. To boot, Snyder's proposition attempts to explain a bunch of
other "data" (like the way we use our smartphones and exhibit a
tendency toward conspiracy theories, gurus, and alternate facts -
oracular truth).
One thing not quite addressed by Snyder is the apparent rationalism in
things like longtermism, effective altruism, etc. For that, I think
he'd have to flesh out how actual/useful/realist truth dovetails with
oracular/mystical truth. He mentions during his talk that, of course
actual tech (like starting a fire) is involved in oracular truth. You
have to start the fire and burn some incense to enthrall your victims.
I think, here is where our metaphor-obsessed colleagues could apply
their skills. Where is, eg, "fire" an actual thing and where is it a
metaphor (eg Prometheus). When should the guru discourage metaphor (the
fire doesn't matter!, pay attention to my hand movements) and when
should they encourage it?
The New Rationalists (including Singerian EA) are masters of metaphor,
either being guided to focus on a small slice of reality or guiding
others to do so, abstracting out some stupid thought experiment like
kids falling into ponds or Trolleys headed toward clueless weirdos
standing on train tracks. Such metaphor is a proven manipulation tactic
used by gurus like Rasputin or Plato the world over.
Which of the witches are actually also enthralled and which are
Barnum-style manipulators? To me, Thiel seems like the latter and Musk
seems like the former.
On 8/2/24 13:52, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Perhaps realizing his interests require tapping government resources and many
trillions of dollars. I could see that for that it might make sense to use
Twitter to manipulate the media and create the political support for his
agenda(s). Maybe it even makes sense to want Trump elected so that social
service spending will be stopped, and more money can be redirected to his
Mechzilla projects. Perhaps he finds an open society creates too many
competing goals, and, by supporting authoritarian thinking and Trump in
particular, he anticipates a government that is easier to focus the way he
likes. What doesn't add up is that it was already going well for him with
relatively wealthy Americans, and then he trashed his reputation and the
profitability of Tesla for no apparent good reason. The kind of people that
will now by an Audi E-Tron instead of a Model S, or an Ionic 5 instead of a
Model 3. He also seems way too engaged in topics like transgender rights and
immigration. None of these issues need influence his life at all. It is as
if he really believes some of the peculiar things he says.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam<friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 11:45 AM
To:friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why musk bought twitter
I clearly don't understand. Snyder's explanation is that Elno is a god, and
views himself as a god (or the weaker concept of a hero). So Elno is both
building/burying his hoard so that it'll be available across the transition
*and* Lying to his flock such that they sacrifice to him in order to engage in
projects that will ensure the transition happens and that he and his flock will
exist on the other side.
None of that is nihilist. What am I missing?
On 8/2/24 11:32, Marcus Daniels wrote:
I was addressing Snyder's recommendation rather than the development of Elon's
personality. Assuming the personality Elon presents is really his. I suspect
it is, which would be kind of a disappointment.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam<friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 11:25 AM
To:friam@redfish.com
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why musk bought twitter
IDK. That sounds like you projecting onto Elno, rather than an explanation that relies on Elno's
[hi]story. His narrative arc is (as Harris laid out in his video) is "the potential of
humankind". And that doesn't seem nihilist to me. Maybe he's become one, of course. As Harris
states in the video, when he became the richest man, a qualitative shift may have taken place.
Harris argues the shift was he bought Twitter because he *need* conflict and obstacles to overcome.
Maybe you could argue the qualitative change was that he became a nihilist when his hoard met that
criterion. But because he continues to be an "AI Doomer" (at least in rhetoric and an
accelerationist in action), there's some sort of Rawlsian curtain, like the singularity ...
something on the other side of the transition - and an attempt to bury one's hoard so that it's
available on the other side. And I think that eschatological conception fits better with his
narrative arc than a nihilistic one.
On 8/2/24 11:11, Marcus Daniels wrote:
My standard answer to this is -- given the neural reference frame of nihilism
-- is why not try some grand social experiments. There is no Purpose, so
causing harm in the short term, or for that matter long term, ultimately
doesn't matter.
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam<friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen
Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 8:12 AM
To:friam@redfish.com
Subject: [FRIAM] why musk bought twitter
This guy does what I think is a good job demonstrating that Elno's stated
reasons (free speech, liberal bias, censorship) for buying Twitter were false:
The Problem With Elon Musk
https://youtu.be/WYQxG4KEzvo?si=oXumcC8aqsYMTzdC&t=1487
Sure, we can project whatever fantasies we want into the mind of an oligarch like Elno. But if
we're trying to do a good job, find an explanation that's "hard to vary" (ala
Deutsch), we're left empty handed. However Timothy Snyder provides us with something I think's
intriguing; and it reflects various other arguments I've made, here, about
TESCREAL<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TESCREAL>.
Here's where I heard Snyder's setup:
The New Paganism: How the Postmodern Became the Premodern
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nr2Q2zGNC8
Appended below is Claude's summary of the talk. But the essence is that these people
"believe" (somehow) they can "take it with them" in a similar way to the pagans
(e.g. Vikings, Egyptians, etc.) believing they could hoard their stuff and somehow have access to
it in the next life. This reflects well, I think, Musk's objectives for SpaceX, Tesla, breeding
children, etc. It's somewhere between believing in souls, one's legacy, and spreading humanity (not
biology, of course, but humanity) throughout the universe.
My guess is most of our Oligarchs will give lip service to spiritual beliefs
like Christianity or whatever, but are actually more atheistic in their
ephemerides. But if you spend enough time arguing about atheism, you
consistently find people (even atheistic people) asking for Purpose (with a
capital P). Why are we here? What should we be doing? Etc. Despite our
overwhelming rationalism/justificationism, many (most?) of us still seek that
grand arch. And those of us who are *lucky* enough to be extraordinarily
successful (in whatever domain) are at the most risk for this
irrational/fideistic, paganist, TESCREAL Purpose. I think it's a relatively
strong hypothesis for why Musk bought Twitter.
Claude's summary:
- Snyder argues that conventional explanations based on rationality and interests fail to
adequately explain the rise of right-wing populist movements and figures like Trump,
Putin, and Musk. Instead, he proposes analyzing these phenomena through the lens of what
he calls "neopaganism."
- He identifies four key dimensions of neopaganism: value, sacrifice, charisma,
and oracular truth.
- On value, he argues today's oligarchs hoard wealth as if they can "take it with
them" after death, similar to pagan burial practices.
- On sacrifice, he contends oligarchs are sacrificing the earth itself through
climate change, taking the world down with them. Putin's invasion of Ukraine
also has a sacrificial logic.
- Charismatic leaders tell big lies to create an alternate reality their
followers live inside. Trump and Putin exemplify this.
- Modern technology, especially smartphones, function as pagan "oracles" -
sources of addictive but often deceptive truth that make us more stupid over time.
- Snyder believes the humanities are crucial for reflecting on these issues and
finding a way out of our current crisis. A narrow, failed rationality has
enabled these destructive dynamics. What's needed is a richer, more reflective
notion of human freedom.
In summary, Snyder argues we need to understand the pagan-like irrationality
and destructiveness driving our world today in order to have any hope of
countering it. The humanities provide essential resources for this task.
--
ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
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