Minor comment from a :metaphor obsessed colleague." I am teaching an honors course at the University of St. Thomas in the spring: Effing the Ineffable, with a colleague who teaches Theology. The basic premise: you just had this extraordinary experience and you want to communicate/share it with others. How do you do so?" Metaphor, obviously.
Case studies will cover a spectrum from Michael Jordan-like "in the zone" experiences to acid trips to Moses and the burning bush to J. Smith and the golden plates. We are undecided if we dare include Mohamed as a case study even though all other religions and mystical traditions are fair game. One thread in the acid-trip area is how contemporary science has provide a host of new metaphors from the realm of physics, etc. that can be utilized to provide a more "accurate" or "satisfying" Effing. davew On Mon, Aug 5, 2024, at 9:07 AM, glen wrote: > These are all fine propositions. But, as you point out, sacrificing his > status doesn't rationally add up. Snyder's proposing a solution to > that. To boot, Snyder's proposition attempts to explain a bunch of > other "data" (like the way we use our smartphones and exhibit a > tendency toward conspiracy theories, gurus, and alternate facts - > oracular truth). > > One thing not quite addressed by Snyder is the apparent rationalism in > things like longtermism, effective altruism, etc. For that, I think > he'd have to flesh out how actual/useful/realist truth dovetails with > oracular/mystical truth. He mentions during his talk that, of course > actual tech (like starting a fire) is involved in oracular truth. You > have to start the fire and burn some incense to enthrall your victims. > I think, here is where our metaphor-obsessed colleagues could apply > their skills. Where is, eg, "fire" an actual thing and where is it a > metaphor (eg Prometheus). When should the guru discourage metaphor (the > fire doesn't matter!, pay attention to my hand movements) and when > should they encourage it? > > The New Rationalists (including Singerian EA) are masters of metaphor, > either being guided to focus on a small slice of reality or guiding > others to do so, abstracting out some stupid thought experiment like > kids falling into ponds or Trolleys headed toward clueless weirdos > standing on train tracks. Such metaphor is a proven manipulation tactic > used by gurus like Rasputin or Plato the world over. > > Which of the witches are actually also enthralled and which are > Barnum-style manipulators? To me, Thiel seems like the latter and Musk > seems like the former. > > On 8/2/24 13:52, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> Perhaps realizing his interests require tapping government resources and >> many trillions of dollars. I could see that for that it might make sense >> to use Twitter to manipulate the media and create the political support for >> his agenda(s). Maybe it even makes sense to want Trump elected so that >> social service spending will be stopped, and more money can be redirected to >> his Mechzilla projects. Perhaps he finds an open society creates too many >> competing goals, and, by supporting authoritarian thinking and Trump in >> particular, he anticipates a government that is easier to focus the way he >> likes. What doesn't add up is that it was already going well for him with >> relatively wealthy Americans, and then he trashed his reputation and the >> profitability of Tesla for no apparent good reason. The kind of people that >> will now by an Audi E-Tron instead of a Model S, or an Ionic 5 instead of a >> Model 3. He also seems way too engaged in topics like transgender rights >> and immigration. None of these issues need influence his life at all. >> It is as if he really believes some of the peculiar things he says. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen >> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 11:45 AM >> To: friam@redfish.com >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why musk bought twitter >> >> I clearly don't understand. Snyder's explanation is that Elno is a god, and >> views himself as a god (or the weaker concept of a hero). So Elno is both >> building/burying his hoard so that it'll be available across the transition >> *and* Lying to his flock such that they sacrifice to him in order to engage >> in projects that will ensure the transition happens and that he and his >> flock will exist on the other side. >> >> None of that is nihilist. What am I missing? >> >> On 8/2/24 11:32, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> I was addressing Snyder's recommendation rather than the development of >>> Elon's personality. Assuming the personality Elon presents is really his. >>> I suspect it is, which would be kind of a disappointment. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen >>> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 11:25 AM >>> To: friam@redfish.com >>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] why musk bought twitter >>> >>> IDK. That sounds like you projecting onto Elno, rather than an explanation >>> that relies on Elno's [hi]story. His narrative arc is (as Harris laid out >>> in his video) is "the potential of humankind". And that doesn't seem >>> nihilist to me. Maybe he's become one, of course. As Harris states in the >>> video, when he became the richest man, a qualitative shift may have taken >>> place. Harris argues the shift was he bought Twitter because he *need* >>> conflict and obstacles to overcome. Maybe you could argue the qualitative >>> change was that he became a nihilist when his hoard met that criterion. But >>> because he continues to be an "AI Doomer" (at least in rhetoric and an >>> accelerationist in action), there's some sort of Rawlsian curtain, like the >>> singularity ... something on the other side of the transition - and an >>> attempt to bury one's hoard so that it's available on the other side. And I >>> think that eschatological conception fits better with his narrative arc >>> than a nihilistic one. >>> >>> On 8/2/24 11:11, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> My standard answer to this is -- given the neural reference frame of >>>> nihilism -- is why not try some grand social experiments. There is no >>>> Purpose, so causing harm in the short term, or for that matter long term, >>>> ultimately doesn't matter. >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> On Behalf Of glen >>>> Sent: Friday, August 2, 2024 8:12 AM >>>> To: friam@redfish.com >>>> Subject: [FRIAM] why musk bought twitter >>>> >>>> This guy does what I think is a good job demonstrating that Elno's stated >>>> reasons (free speech, liberal bias, censorship) for buying Twitter were >>>> false: >>>> >>>> The Problem With Elon Musk >>>> https://youtu.be/WYQxG4KEzvo?si=oXumcC8aqsYMTzdC&t=1487 >>>> >>>> Sure, we can project whatever fantasies we want into the mind of an >>>> oligarch like Elno. But if we're trying to do a good job, find an >>>> explanation that's "hard to vary" (ala Deutsch), we're left empty handed. >>>> However Timothy Snyder provides us with something I think's intriguing; >>>> and it reflects various other arguments I've made, here, about TESCREAL >>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TESCREAL>. >>>> >>>> Here's where I heard Snyder's setup: >>>> >>>> The New Paganism: How the Postmodern Became the Premodern >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Nr2Q2zGNC8 >>>> >>>> Appended below is Claude's summary of the talk. But the essence is that >>>> these people "believe" (somehow) they can "take it with them" in a similar >>>> way to the pagans (e.g. Vikings, Egyptians, etc.) believing they could >>>> hoard their stuff and somehow have access to it in the next life. This >>>> reflects well, I think, Musk's objectives for SpaceX, Tesla, breeding >>>> children, etc. It's somewhere between believing in souls, one's legacy, >>>> and spreading humanity (not biology, of course, but humanity) throughout >>>> the universe. >>>> >>>> My guess is most of our Oligarchs will give lip service to spiritual >>>> beliefs like Christianity or whatever, but are actually more atheistic in >>>> their ephemerides. But if you spend enough time arguing about atheism, you >>>> consistently find people (even atheistic people) asking for Purpose (with >>>> a capital P). Why are we here? What should we be doing? Etc. Despite our >>>> overwhelming rationalism/justificationism, many (most?) of us still seek >>>> that grand arch. And those of us who are *lucky* enough to be >>>> extraordinarily successful (in whatever domain) are at the most risk for >>>> this irrational/fideistic, paganist, TESCREAL Purpose. I think it's a >>>> relatively strong hypothesis for why Musk bought Twitter. >>>> >>>> Claude's summary: >>>>> - Snyder argues that conventional explanations based on rationality and >>>>> interests fail to adequately explain the rise of right-wing populist >>>>> movements and figures like Trump, Putin, and Musk. Instead, he proposes >>>>> analyzing these phenomena through the lens of what he calls "neopaganism." >>>>> >>>>> - He identifies four key dimensions of neopaganism: value, sacrifice, >>>>> charisma, and oracular truth. >>>>> >>>>> - On value, he argues today's oligarchs hoard wealth as if they can "take >>>>> it with them" after death, similar to pagan burial practices. >>>>> >>>>> - On sacrifice, he contends oligarchs are sacrificing the earth itself >>>>> through climate change, taking the world down with them. Putin's invasion >>>>> of Ukraine also has a sacrificial logic. >>>>> >>>>> - Charismatic leaders tell big lies to create an alternate reality their >>>>> followers live inside. Trump and Putin exemplify this. >>>>> >>>>> - Modern technology, especially smartphones, function as pagan "oracles" >>>>> - sources of addictive but often deceptive truth that make us more stupid >>>>> over time. >>>>> >>>>> - Snyder believes the humanities are crucial for reflecting on these >>>>> issues and finding a way out of our current crisis. A narrow, failed >>>>> rationality has enabled these destructive dynamics. What's needed is a >>>>> richer, more reflective notion of human freedom. >>>>> >>>>> In summary, Snyder argues we need to understand the pagan-like >>>>> irrationality and destructiveness driving our world today in order to >>>>> have any hope of countering it. The humanities provide essential >>>>> resources for this task. >>> > > -- > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe / Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom > https://bit.ly/virtualfriam > to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: 5/2017 thru present > https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/ > 1/2003 thru 6/2021 http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/ -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. . 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