I'm sorry, Marcus. Define "clear thinking." On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 11:22 PM Marcus Daniels <[email protected]> wrote:
> I have heard scientists say, when confronted with certain experimental > evidence, that don’t believe the evidence. It’s not just because they are > arrogant, it is because they have experience with other evidence and > highly-scrutinized models derived from that evidence – that there has to be > another explanation. (One recent example that comes to mind is the > Q-thruster / EmDrive.) It seems to me it ought to be possible to decouple > clear thinking from how organizations work, and from personality. > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2020 8:24 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"? > > > > Wow, Karl is my guy, but I didn't know about this. Thank you Stephen. > > > > To get to Nick's problem, we are at point in the history of our species on > this planet where I think we must pay attention to the adjacent possible > "truth" of an ecozoic vision (Thomas Berry) that involves an inter-species > future. Someone recently said "science is a glass half filled" and that's > because as practiced by most, science has become a system of thought closed > to any but its own "truth." Doesn't the best science embrace methods that > consider all assumptions and facts to be open to question? The division > between what is "real" from what is "belief" cancels out the possibility > of what emerges that is beyond the grasp of modern science. > > > > Einstein famously said "Imagination is more important than knowledge." > The imaginary story is missing in science, colonized by a mind-set and > methodology that demands proof of "existence." Physicist David Bohm, the > godfather of the generative dialogue we teach and practice, understood this > when he wrote that discussion (and by extension experimentation--not lived > experience) uses only rational intelligence, while a full investigation of > wicked problems demands additional perspectives perceived through our > senses, emotions, self-awareness, and intuition. There is more than one > Truth to be discovered, dear Nick, and that ain't bat-shit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 2:54 PM Stephen Guerin < > [email protected]> wrote: > > Nick writes: > > But some assertions are bat-shit crazy, and provably so > > > > Knowing some of the background where Merle is coming from: Rights of > Nature, Ecocide Law, etc > <https://medium.com/@pella.thiel/time-for-a-universal-declaration-on-the-rights-of-nature-ad97263a39f4>, > it just may be our current Economic and Scientific paradigms > (Evolution/Competition/Captalism) in Science are literally driving us > batshit crazy. > > Provably batshit crazy. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guano_Islands_Act > > BTW, I got to the Guano_islands_Act starting from a google search of > "metabolic sovereignty" * as I thought it might get at Merle's idea > scientificially. > > > This quickly got me to Marx's metabolic Rift > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolic_rift> from which the Guano > Islands Act popped up. > > -Stephen > > * I'm supposed to be writing a paper today that has something to do with > self-sovereign identity in decentralized systems which is why sovereignty > is on my mind. > > _______________________________________________________________________ > [email protected] <[email protected]> > > CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com > > 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828 > > twitter: @simtable > > z <http://zoom.com/j/5055775828>oom.simtable.com > > > > > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 12:39 PM <[email protected]> wrote: > > I think I disagree, Merle. If we lose faith that there is a truth to be > found concerning the matters of which we speak *as scientists*, we lose > everything. When we speak as poets, etc., of course, we relax that > constraint. But what defines science for me is that there are truths to be > found. I am pretty sure Glen also disagrees with me, and DaveW and maybe > Kim, so you are in good company. If anything characterizes the assault on > society of the last 4 years, it is the undermining of faith in the notion > of convergent inquiry. The first domino to fall was anthropology, in the > sixties, which led to a mayhem of political correctness and purges that > destroyed the field. Sure we have to respect people equally. Sure we have > to treat their metaphysical non-sense on a par with our own. But some > assertions are bat-shit crazy, and provably so, and if you entertain the > notion that all assertions are equally true, you might just as well drink > the kool-aid and climb the ramp into the space ship, so far as I am > concerned. I will wave you a sad good bye because we everybody’s > shoulders to the truth-wheel if we are to survive. > > > > Nick > > > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > > Clark University > > [email protected] > > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > > > *From:* Friam <[email protected]> *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff > *Sent:* Tuesday, December 29, 2020 1:15 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < > [email protected]> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] where are the "patriot hackers"? > > > > "True" things about the world beyond the reach of science must be included > in the expanding dialogue, like a mountain that is also an earth being, or > forest animals that are spirit masters of their worlds. We can think of > them as other-than-humans, but they "exist" in indigenous cultures. They > are only "beliefs" in ours, but for those of us who are "Animists", they > are always present in the dialogue. > > > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 9:40 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[email protected]> wrote: > > So, I'm once again down in a rabbit hole over whether Dave's (cautiously > backed by Kim) idea of a "science of the mind" is reasonable, wherein > subjective/reflective techniques like psychedelic drugs or meditation can > say "true" things about the world, particularly that may be beyond the > reach of science. And there I am reading about Falun Gong < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun_Gong> and its "outlets" like The > Epoch Times, which spew constant nonsense, feeding the delusional QAnon > narratives: > > > https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-newest-trump-boosted-viral-maga-star-has-ties-to-the-epoch-times > > And I'm wondering, where are the "patriot hackers" and Anonymous? > > What happened to all that rigmarole about protecting the world and the > internet from insidious sh¡t like The Epoch Times? Is it that ostensibly > white hat members are combating shallow techniques like DDoS so well that > the script kiddies who used to claim to be Anonymous are outmatched? Maybe > Assange siding with Trump fractured the group? And what about the Jester < > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jester_(hacktivist)>, who was arguably > more capable than the large majority of hacktivists? Was he hired by the > NSA and now works alone in a steel cage? Or has his mind been infected by > the attractive conspiracy theories and persecution complexes we dorks are > so susceptible to? > > I feel confident that some of you have some insight! Please share. > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC <http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/FRIAM-COMIC> > http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > > -- > > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org > > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > > twitter: @merle110 > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > > -- > > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > Center for Emergent Diplomacy > emergentdiplomacy.org > > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > > > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merle.lelfkoff2 > > twitter: @merle110 > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > -- Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. Center for Emergent Diplomacy emergentdiplomacy.org Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @merle110
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
