He still spent more time at Bell Labs than I did. ----------------------------------- Frank Wimberly
My memoir: https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly My scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 Phone (505) 670-9918 On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 6:15 PM Angel Edward <edward.an...@gmail.com> wrote: > It may be Bob but he spent most of his career at Sandia and before that at > UNM CS. > > Ed > __________ > > Ed Angel > > Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS > Lab) > Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico > > 1017 Sierra Pinon > Santa Fe, NM 87501 > 505-984-0136 (home) edward.an...@gmail.com > 505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel > > On Dec 26, 2019, at 5:27 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Bob Ballance!! > > ----------------------------------- > Frank Wimberly > > My memoir: > https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly > > My scientific publications: > https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 > > Phone (505) 670-9918 > > On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:40 PM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Also, there was a guy who had also worked at Bell Labs, for a lot longer >> than I did, who used to come to Friam. Then he got some kind of honorary >> position in DC left town temporarily. He had thinning white hair and wore >> glasses and was about my height. With that unique description someone must >> know who I'm talking about. His name is on the tip of my tongue. >> >> Frank >> >> ----------------------------------- >> Frank Wimberly >> >> My memoir: >> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >> >> My scientific publications: >> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >> >> Phone (505) 670-9918 >> >> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 4:06 PM <thompnicks...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Our Own Lee Rudolph, was there as well. In the belly of Net Logo, I >>> think. >>> >>> >>> >>> Lee???? Are you out there? >>> >>> >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> >>> Nicholas Thompson >>> >>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology >>> >>> Clark University >>> >>> thompnicks...@gmail.com >>> >>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> *On Behalf Of *Steven A Smith >>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 26, 2019 2:56 PM >>> *To:* friam@redfish.com >>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable >>> >>> >>> >>> Frank - >>> >>> I am, it's first draft is roughly what I get when I filter my >>> outbox. The chapters on "memoirs of sci/tech" are in the >>> "recipients:Friam" stream... this collection may very well also be the >>> primary contents of many's TL;DR folder here. >>> >>> I would appreciate a second memoir from yourself covering the years >>> (and anecdotes) including running Paul Erdos out of the Berkeley Campus >>> Library each night and the belly of the ATT and CMU (and???) beasts... to >>> complement the not-too-long-after-wild-wild-west days in NM. >>> >>> My friend who is no more than a couple of years younger than you who >>> grew up in Las Vegas and Amarillo recognized a lot of familiar "color" from >>> your memoir. He got lucky and ended up at MIT in the early 60s... >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> On 12/26/19 11:30 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >>> >>> Steve, >>> >>> >>> >>> You should write a memoir. >>> >>> >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> ----------------------------------- >>> Frank Wimberly >>> >>> My memoir: >>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>> >>> My scientific publications: >>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>> >>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 10:42 AM Steven A Smith <sasm...@swcp.com> wrote: >>> >>> Frank - >>> >>> It is fascinating to hear that you were in the "belly of the beast" if >>> only for a short while. I suppose we have all been in the belly of *some* >>> beast in our various times. >>> >>> My earliest years were without a telephone in the house (camp-trailer in >>> the woods) followed by several party lines (shared in 2 cases amongst other >>> USFS families in forest-camp compounds) and understanding that the magical >>> rings and voices coming from the handsets in the house were modulated >>> (whatever that meant to a 3 year old) over the insulated bundles of wires >>> running from tree-to-tree and pole-to-pole... It wasn't hard to >>> understand the idea that if voices could travel over single wires, that any >>> one of us on a party line could pick up and hear the other's voices during >>> a conversation or even that the volume/static on the line would abruptly >>> change if someone picked up (say to listen in?). It made perfect sense >>> that such resources (wires on poles) were very scarce and needed to be >>> shared... I had heard of operator-assisted calling which made great sense >>> (patch panels) but the idea that the pulses sent via the spring-loaded >>> rotary dial could "tell" a electromechanical switch (my father showed me >>> the one in the main location at the second forest camp when I was about 5) >>> and I remember watching/hearing a call go through it... relays opening and >>> closing as ring pulses went through... >>> >>> One of my friend's father was the local telephone lineman and he was >>> busy all the time either going out on trouble calls or doing maintenance on >>> the switches. Realizing that in a community of roughly 300 (600 in the >>> county at the time!) was keeping one man busy (more than) full time doing >>> this was my first taste of "infrastructure". I don't know what kind of >>> backup he had... I never saw anyone else working with him nor heard of >>> anyone else employed... though I do know sometimes there were company >>> trucks parked at the fenced yard next to his house... probably for new line >>> buildout? Another father of a friend owned/operated the local "vending" >>> routes which included soda machines, candy machines and best of all pinball >>> machines. HIs territory must have been pretty wide because our 300 town >>> only had one soda/candy machine at each of 2 gasoline stations and 3 >>> pinball machines at the drug/variety store. I got to see the ones in >>> their shop behind the house under repair opened up and really got a kick >>> out of trying to "trace the logic" of a coin-drop/lever-pull, >>> delivery-chute... and even better, the complex logic of a pinball >>> machine. Yet another father drove the propane delivery truck (he had a >>> boss who drove some, but he was the main driver) and another who ran the >>> local branch of the power - coop along with his wife. They had more >>> trucks that came in from the next large town (60 miles and maybe 1000 >>> people?) to do major repairs/upgrades, but he was out in his truck all the >>> time fixing/installing *something*. Several of these men ran an ad-hoc >>> cable network in the core of the village... nothing came in by antenna and >>> I guess they had their own up on a mountain with a rebroadcast system... >>> the network was down as much as it was up and while *some* of the customers >>> had to have been paying customers, it was these guys who somewho >>> cooperatively kept it going. I *knew* that someone besides these men were >>> *designing* and *building* the systems they maintained (thought the cable >>> TV thing was more DIY). >>> >>> Many years later, we moved to a large town/small-city (2 supermarkets, a >>> dozen motels and gas stations?) and our neighbors at the edge of town owned >>> the local AM radio station... they solicited me to clean the station every >>> Saturday and after a few months of that I graduated to typing up station >>> program logs and then began to operate the station under supervision... >>> they were largely "automated" which meant 4 big carousels with 4-track >>> endless loop (similar to 8-track) cartidges that we would load with music, >>> PSAs and commercials which were then "programmed" by inserting pins in >>> different patch-panels... there were two modes... for example, the system >>> that took over on the top of hour for the network news would inject one of >>> a small handful of instrumental tunes that could be faded/interrupted >>> at-will to flip over the newsfeed. The rest of the time, the system had a >>> priority stack and the commercial/PSAs stack had priority in the sense that >>> it wanted to play out it's queue within the allotted time (usually one >>> hour) no matter what... while the music queue would simply play whenever >>> one of the others were not... only rarely (due to bad planning) would a >>> commercial or PSA go unplayed. Not every hour was different, but there >>> were periods (8-12AM, 1-5PM, 6-10PM) that had a particular character and >>> there was some variation within it. By the time I was 15 (Freshman in HS) >>> the station owners saw my diligence and curiosity (the Station Engineer >>> would take the time to explain most everything there to me in as much >>> detail as I had time for) and offered me a nighttime live show which I ran >>> for most of my HS years. I always had the option to fire up the automated >>> system, as I was also trying to do my homework during that time. I went >>> in to the station before 4PM to handle the 4-6 news programs (I can still >>> hear Paul Harvey ringing in my ears) and then the (automated) 6-7 PM >>> "sundown serenade" curated by the wife but executed by me (most of the >>> time). At 7 we rolled into "the Night Show" which was conceived by the >>> owners to be something for the "youth crowd". It was nominally a Rock show >>> but was really Top-40 by their measure... We had the full array of classic >>> rock vinyl in the shelves and I was allowed to use (most of) it but there >>> was the top-40 billboard charts to be serviced which meant a lot of >>> pop-rock and country-rock and pop-pop. >>> >>> Yet another exposure to the complexities of "programming" and "logic" >>> from a somewhat different perspective. The engineer at the time had been >>> on the predecessor to the NIF fusion project in Livermore (MFE?) >>> (designing/building the capacitor banks) and clued me in a lot of things. >>> He was a greasy-haired wiry little hippy that drove an old italian >>> convertible (very finicky with dual carbs...) and had a penchant for >>> visiting the bars/brothels in Mexico (this was a border town) and probably >>> got rolled by someone at least once a year... and had the stories (and >>> scuffs) to tell about it. He taught me binary logic/arithmetic and showed >>> me how that related to the somewhat similar/different discrete/analog >>> systems behind the carousels (all the electronics were exposed, so you >>> could trace wires and watch relays open/close) and even taught me the >>> basics of analog circuits including soldering, relays, power >>> amplifiers/transmitters. Later, as I went into the all-digital world of >>> Computer Science, It was as if I was learning about Mammals after growing >>> up among only Marsupials. Of course automobiles had their own share of >>> analog-discrete logic with an HV (timed) side and a 12V mostly continuous >>> (but with switches/relays) side. This was the 70s and the autos of >>> interest were mostly from the 50s/60s. >>> >>> I went to LANL in 1981 to work on the Proton Storage Ring which was in >>> some ways the epitome of an anolog/digital hybrid systems with huge >>> subsystems being HV and HF while others were "utility" (110/60) and yet >>> others were TTL. The place was "in flux" all the time... with magnetic >>> fields (intended and unintended) coming and going effecting everything. >>> It was a quite the milieu. Moving to HPC was both a relief and a whole >>> new world... even though I still worked with some analog systems, they >>> were much less dangerous and much less high speed... the digital stuff was >>> lickety-split (by those days standards) and the introduction of vector and >>> parallel (and eventually distributed) processing was new and interesting. >>> By the time I was mentoring others (90s), the backgrounds were almost >>> exclusively digital and most if not all of the "kids" that came through had >>> never even worked on their own cars, much less vending machine or automated >>> tape carousel logic. >>> >>> As Y2K approached, a consultant from SAIC was working in my general >>> area... we became friends... but his role and way of thinking was >>> incredibly foreign to me. One of his roles (he felt like a plant from the >>> military-industrial into the military-scientific establishment) was to >>> consult on Y2K readiness. My system at the time had been hand-built on >>> top of UNIX (replacing a VMS system that was falling apart every day) by a >>> small team (3-5 of us) and while I did not know every line of code in the >>> system (I had written a good portion of it), we had coding practices and >>> standards and code-reviews and I was roughly 99.9% confident that we didn't >>> have a single 2-digit date in the system, nor did we depend on any >>> libraries or system code which did. The open-source/community nature of >>> BSD Unix meant that everything we relied on and trusted without inspecting >>> personally had been inspected by hundreds or thousands of others. The Y2K >>> problem had been discussed a lot and there were plenty of procedures in >>> place to encourage (though never ensure) that every code-team/system had >>> expunged any possible Y2K bugs. My SAIC buddy talked in SLOC and had >>> metrics up the wazoo about things which almost exclusively did not apply >>> (well) to our systems as-designed and as-built. There may well have been >>> (especially in the Business Processing side of the house) some big >>> risk/holes, but I knew my system intimately and the other major/similar >>> systems (slightly larger development teams with more turnover) were well in >>> hand. >>> >>> We (the three major systems) also had on-call responsibility and were >>> used to being called at 3AM if something wasn't right.... *we* had been >>> trained by the operations staff to not leave them hanging... they could be >>> pretty easy-going/helpful with those of us who answered our phones and were >>> easy-going/helpful with them, but the few who thought they shouldn't have >>> to help stand up a system they built when it fell over (or sprung a leak) >>> at 3AM on a holiday discovered quickly that they would not be let off >>> easier just because they were reluctant or pissy about the call. Bottom >>> line was that we (developers) knew that our systems had to run 24/7/365 and >>> the 00:00:01 01/01/00 was just like any other day, and if/when/as the >>> dominoes might start to fall, it was OUR job to be right there standing >>> back up any of OUR dominoes that might fall on their own or be knocked down >>> by others. There was a little rivalry between systems (operations as well >>> as development) but for the most part of someone else's system was falling >>> down and making a mess (creating possible/implied bugs in other systems) >>> we all pulled together pretty well. I don't know to this day if my SAIC >>> friend understood how coordinated and intimate we all were, because he kept >>> on predicting gloom and doom for us as the date approached. As it was, >>> there wasn't even much scurry as the calendar/clocks cranked over Y2K, and >>> I don't remember any acute problems. We (wanted to?) believed that the >>> ADP side of the house had no end of problems due to their heavy dependence >>> on commercial systems/layers/middle-ware/vendors. As I remember it, Y2K >>> was pretty much a flop everywhere. >>> >>> All this in response to "IT is Not Sustainable". I would claim that >>> virtually NOTHING we build is sustainable... or at least there is a huge >>> spectrum. Engineering can be incredibly robust within it's design >>> parameters, but is often incredibly fragile when confronted with a >>> unexpected conditions... Evolved systems are also simultaneously fragile >>> and robust. They are robust within the "basins of attraction" implied by >>> the ecosystem they operate within but once pushed out of those robust >>> regions they can self-destruct quickly... I've been studying (very loosely) >>> the myriad examples of species extinction and habitat loss and cascading >>> failures (in progress and/or impending) in our ecosystems and am appalled >>> at how unprepared we (humans, engineers, even scientists) are to apprehend >>> the fragile interconnectedness and "designed for near-optimal-conditions" >>> we have set up. Not precisely a house of cards, a line of dominos, a >>> stack of Jenga sticks, but not precisely NOT those either. >>> >>> My recent trip to Europe/Scandinavia opened my eyes to some things I was >>> previously under-aware of. The evolved-engineered systems of polder and >>> canal and dike and hydrology in the Netherlands is perhaps the most >>> impressive. Realizing that they started significantly holding back the >>> north sea during the "little ice age" (dikes and polders had started >>> earlier, but this was when they really came into their own?) helps me to >>> appreciate the difference between what they have done there over centuries >>> vs what our own Army Corps has done in less than 100... and most to the >>> point, the ways a whole culture can adapt to things including their own >>> engineering given many generations, but how we "moderns" don't have time to >>> adapt culturally to the changes. We DO adapt (the talk of telephones and >>> the earliest examples leading up to a global wireless, >>> multi-system-technology mesh/grid being an example), but it isn't clear to >>> me that our adaptation is *deep* enough to be robust... >>> >>> Another example in less detail is what has been come to be called "the >>> Nordic Secret" which is roughly the response of Scandinavia to the >>> enlightenment followed by the industrial revolution and perhaps most >>> acutely the post WWII industrial/cultural explosion in the west. In many >>> ways they follow the rest of the West, but it seems they may actually know >>> "a secret" about sustainability, both industrially and culturally. >>> >>> The "Endogenous Existential Threats" of our time are many/myriad and to >>> the point... Endogenous... self-generatated... and while we may be taking >>> down a lot of the biosphere-as-we-know it with us, the biggest tragedy >>> seems to be set to land ON us, and those closest to us (our domisticates >>> and the remaining large mammal species)... though that also may simply be >>> an anthropocentric view. >>> >>> As Dave's title says "IT" is not sustainable... you name the "it" and >>> it very likely has a lamer lifetime than you imagine (my Y2K anecdote >>> notwithstanding)... >>> >>> I WILL say that despite my neo-Luddite rants, I've become more of an >>> Eco-Modernist of late... not necessarily wanting to trust that we can >>> "technology" our way out of the disasters we are creating with our >>> technology, but recognizing that perhaps we have little other choice >>> (culturally)... and that we must *try* to walk the tightrope of using >>> "fire to fight fire" but with (perhaps) a lot more self-awareness than that >>> which we used to paint ourselves into this (mixed metaphor of a) corner. >>> >>> </ramble> >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> >>> >>> On 12/26/19 9:08 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> "CenturyLink (NYSE: CTL) has set a goal to reduce power consumption on >>> its public switched telephone network by nearly 22,000 megawatt-hours a >>> year, reducing greenhouse gas emissions as more customers migrate to VoIP >>> and mobile voice services. >>> >>> Although CenturyLink is growing its IP-based voice service, this project >>> is focused on consolidating more than 400,000 legacy PSTN subscriber lines >>> across 50 Class 5 voice switches. " >>> >>> >>> >>> They're called class 5 because of 5ESS which is the most used class 5 >>> switch at CenturyLink. >>> >>> Sorry, but I had to clarify this. >>> >>> >>> >>> Frsnk >>> >>> ----------------------------------- >>> Frank Wimberly >>> >>> My memoir: >>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>> >>> My scientific publications: >>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>> >>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:43 AM Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> June 2019) (Learn how and when to remove this template message). 5ESS >>> used in a mobile telephone network. The 5ESS Switching System is a Class 5 >>> telephone electronic switching system developed by ... >>> >>> ----------------------------------- >>> Frank Wimberly >>> >>> My memoir: >>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>> >>> My scientific publications: >>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>> >>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 8:36 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Frank writes: >>> >>> >>> >>> “This was the telephone network in question.“ >>> >>> >>> >>> With the mobile carriers and VOIP, I wonder how much of that code is >>> still used? I once worked for a small company that wrote software to do >>> billing for long distance telephone carriers. I was amazed by the >>> seemingly arbitrary complexity. Complex at a policy and >>> inter-organizational level, not just the software. >>> >>> >>> >>> Marcus >>> >>> >>> >>> *From: *Friam <friam-boun...@redfish.com> on behalf of Frank Wimberly < >>> wimber...@gmail.com> >>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>> friam@redfish.com> >>> *Date: *Thursday, December 26, 2019 at 5:39 AM >>> *To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group < >>> friam@redfish.com> >>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] IT is Not Sustainable >>> >>> >>> >>> At Bell Labs we sure didn't pay anyone by LOC. We also had code reviews >>> and software tools to enforce standards and very high pay. With a brand >>> new PhD I made more than all but the 3 most senior members of the CS >>> faculty at Pitt where I was a grad student. This was the telephone network >>> in question. >>> >>> >>> >>> Despite the high pay I disliked software administration methodology. >>> The disagreements between the software tool developers (version control, >>> integration of subsystems, compilers, etc) and the implementors of the >>> applications, such as call processing, were epic. Recall that Bell Labs >>> invented C and Unix. After 18 months I returned to Pittsburgh to work at >>> Carnegie Mellon in Robotics for two thirds the salary. >>> >>> >>> >>> Number 5 ESS was first deployed in March 1982, 4 years after work >>> began. I suspect that it didn't have 200 million lines of code then, but >>> close to it. Maybe Dave doesn't consider it an IT project but many of the >>> software tools that were developed were included in later Unix releases, I >>> believe. >>> >>> >>> >>> It's going to be a beautiful day in Santa Fe. >>> >>> >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----------------------------------- >>> Frank Wimberly >>> >>> My memoir: >>> https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly >>> >>> My scientific publications: >>> https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 >>> >>> Phone (505) 670-9918 >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019, 1:28 AM Gary Schiltz <g...@naturesvisualarts.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Spot on. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 26, 2019 at 2:29 AM Marcus Daniels <mar...@snoutfarm.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Most programmers won't struggle to rationalize or improve code written >>> by other people. The problem is that people are selfish. They think >>> that their 10K LOC problem is beautiful and nimble, but that 1M LOC was >>> once that too. It's the behavior of teenagers. >>> >>> On 12/25/19, 10:47 PM, "Friam on behalf of Russell Standish" < >>> friam-boun...@redfish.com on behalf of li...@hpcoders.com.au> wrote: >>> >>> It's all about the LOC! Actually, I kind of agree - having worked on >>> some MegaLOC codebases that functionally seemed to be no more complex >>> than a 10KLOC project I'm involved in, the 10KLOC project is much >>> more >>> nimble - compile times are far less, making changes to the code >>> easier >>> and bugs less troublesome to winkle out. >>> >>> I've also refactored or rewritten pieces of code to slash the LOC by >>> a >>> factor of 3 or more for that particular section (eg 3KLOC -> 1KLOC) - >>> but usually when bugs and problems kept on cropping up in that >>> section. >>> >>> Even though the LOC is an entirely bogus measurement - if you paid a >>> programmer by LOC, you'd get boilerplate and crappy comments. >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> Dr Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >>> Principal, High Performance Coders >>> Visiting Senior Research Fellow hpco...@hpcoders.com.au >>> Economics, Kingston University http://www.hpcoders.com.au >>> >>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >>> >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >>> ============================================================ >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >>> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >>> archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ >>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >>> >> ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
