Nick - I'm suspect that my own habits around indentation, /italicization/, etc. are not explicit enough to make things clear enough as to who is speaking to whom. I also tend to trust/defer to my mailtool (thunderbird) which *seems* to add very limited HTML markup of included sections. I do this in deference to those here who might be using (rich?)text-only tools. I am wondering if YOUR mail tool of choice strips that?
I assume you might see both: Indentation <tab> /Italics/ and does the following inclusion of your text appear as significantly different text than my own? On 11/19/19 9:39 AM, Nick Thompson wrote: > > Hi, Dave, > > > > I had seen your post below before, but because you computer woke-folk > won’t use HTML, I can never tell who’s talking to whom about what. > And also, this business of having two computers, neither of which > work, is driving me ever crazier than I usually am. I find myself > typing a response on my new computer while moving the mouse connected > to my old computer and wondering why nothing is happening. So I > stipulate that I have contributed more than my share to the > disjointedness of the conversation. Sorry for that. > > > > I will try and straighten things out a bit below. > > > > In the meantime allow me to cop to my puritanism with respect to > anything that smacks of “experience enhancement”. I can hear you all > putting on your Trump-sincere-voice, shedding one crocodile tear each, > and saying, in a chorus, “*/Sad!”/* But there it is. I am not one to > be tempted by the giant roller-coaster at the fair, or by the vampire > movie at the mall. To me, life is enough of a roller-coaster without > introducing/gratuitous/ bumps. Nor do I have a much of an interest in > science fiction. I come from the Silent Generation (Remember, I am > THAT old!) The sixties is the chasm across which you and I (and many > of the other participants in this discussion) view one another. In my > Peircean moments, I view life as a stream of experiences that I am at > pains to manage. I grew up hearing about Hitler, killing camps, death > and starvation of millions. I didn’t have to imagine goblins; they > were on the news every day. To me, a quiet life is a miraculous > achievement. Anything that makes that stream of experience more > difficult to manage is… well … annoying. Drug experiences, extreme > experiences of any kind, do not fill me with wonder. If you take a > large chunk of flint stone and bash it on an anvil it shatters into … > well … /flints. /Hitting the human mind with a drug-hammer, or a > starvation hammer, a near-death hammer, or even a sleep-hammer is like > that. Yes, I suppose, it tells you something about the structure of > the thing you are hitting, but I don’t suppose, with my Puritan > mindset, that it tells me ANYTHING about the Universe. Good LORD. > Why would it? > > > > I know that Prufrock was Ironic, but I still take some odd perverse > pleasure in … > > > > I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my > trousers rolled. … > > Do I dare to eat a peach? > > I shall wear white flannel trousers and walk upon the > beach. > > I have heard the mermaids singing each to each. > > I do not think that they will sing for me. > > > > Sometimes I feel like your crazy uncle at Thanksgiving*. *Even though > I was a little kid during WWII, I still feel like I /fought/ for your > sanity. And now you find joy and wisdom in madness?! I am a 50’s > Apollonian in a nest of 70’s Dionysians. > > Yes. I know. */Sad! /* > > */ /* > > *Nick * > > * * > > *PS: *OK. It’s time I read some Geertz first-hand. Assign me > something. Not too much, please. N. > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prof David West [mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 8:14 AM > To: nick thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > Subject: post you seem to have missed from FRIAM > > > > Nick said: > > > > */"What struck me about them was how many of them held the view that > reality was beyond experience: i.e., that our experience provided > clues to reality, but the thing itself was beyond experience. I never > could convince them that that their belief in a reality beyond > experience had to be based on … experience. So, why not be monists, > and talk about organizations of experience. Ultimately, it was their > dualism that confirmed me in my monism."/* > > > > How about an assertion that there is A Reality beyond "ordinary" > experience; with "ordinary experience" being the half-dozen or so overt > > */[NST==>what is a covert sensory experience? <==nst] /* > > sensory inputs (sight, sound, balance, touch, taste, smell) we > typically associate with experience. > > > > Given a different set of inputs — e.g. emotions, hallucinations, > visions, dreams — must we assume that we are still experiencing the > same Reality as that experienced with overt sensory inputs; or, is the > door open to an alternative Reality even if Reality-A and Reality-B > have significant but not total congruence? We are still experiencing, > so your experiential monism is intact, but Reality is dualist/pluralist. > > */[NST==>Well, to a monist there is, in your sense, no reality at > all! Reality is an aspiration. Reality is what arises from the > management of experience. Given our generational difference, I > sometimes wonder if you don’t take for granted the reality that I am > fighting for. <==nst] /* > > > > Or, suppose there are a set of inputs, of the same Reality, that are > not included in the overt set (sight, taste, et. al.). Previously it > was noted that the eye can detect a single photon (and we can "sense" > other quantum level phenomena). You asserted that such sensory inputs > would be "lost in the noise" of the functioning organism and hence are > not "experienced." Is this not a case of a detectable/sensible Reality > beyond experience? > > > > A corollary: can there be "experiences" — a set of stimulus-response > pairs — not included in the overt senses, and not describable in ordinary > > */[NST==>What is extra-ordinary language? <==nst] /* > > language? Obviously, I am talking about "mystical" experiences such as > "being in the zone" or lower-case s, satori, or even upper-case s, > Satori (aka enlightenment). It is important to note that these are > stimulus-response events, not necessarily "experiences;" as > experience, in ordinary language, necessarily implies an experience-r, > and in the examples I am thinking about, there is no "I" and hence no > experience-r. > > > > AND, > > > > */"By the way, Geertz is probably the locus classicus of the > relativism I deplore."/* > > */ /* > > Sir! Them's fightin words!!! > > > > But I forgive you, as you clearly misunderstand Geertz (one of my > personal heroes). Nothing he says is "relativist." His observations > and conclusions are, however, hermeneutic. Geertz merely points out a > fact — there are no cross cultural universals (except one, that I will > get to in just a moment), nor are there any "objective" criteria for > asserting primacy or privilege of one culture over another. From this > comes an indictment of ethnocentrism as one culture stating that > "obviously" our values, our ways of doing things, our worldview, our > customs ... are superior to yours, correct while yours are erroneous, etc. > > > > Hermeneuticism is NOT relativism. > > > > The one cultural universal: every culture (obviously not every > individual in every culture) incorporates a belief in the > "supernatural." In all but, maybe, 2-3, cultures the "supernatural" > includes an alternative realm of existence (pre- and/or after-life or > "other planes." The, interpretations of this universal are multiple - > pretty much one per culture/subculture. > > > > davew > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
