Nick, I was a baby and then a toddler during WWII but I feel much the same as you do. I do like fast cars, however.
Frank ----------------------------------- Frank Wimberly My memoir: https://www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly My scientific publications: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2 Phone (505) 670-9918 On Tue, Nov 19, 2019, 9:39 AM Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Hi, Dave, > > > > I had seen your post below before, but because you computer woke-folk > won’t use HTML, I can never tell who’s talking to whom about what. And > also, this business of having two computers, neither of which work, is > driving me ever crazier than I usually am. I find myself typing a response > on my new computer while moving the mouse connected to my old computer and > wondering why nothing is happening. So I stipulate that I have contributed > more than my share to the disjointedness of the conversation. Sorry for > that. > > > > I will try and straighten things out a bit below. > > > > In the meantime allow me to cop to my puritanism with respect to anything > that smacks of “experience enhancement”. I can hear you all putting on > your Trump-sincere-voice, shedding one crocodile tear each, and saying, in > a chorus, “*Sad!”* But there it is. I am not one to be tempted by the > giant roller-coaster at the fair, or by the vampire movie at the mall. To > me, life is enough of a roller-coaster without introducing* gratuitous* > bumps. Nor do I have a much of an interest in science fiction. I come > from the Silent Generation (Remember, I am THAT old!) The sixties is the > chasm across which you and I (and many of the other participants in this > discussion) view one another. In my Peircean moments, I view life as a > stream of experiences that I am at pains to manage. I grew up hearing > about Hitler, killing camps, death and starvation of millions. I didn’t > have to imagine goblins; they were on the news every day. To me, a quiet > life is a miraculous achievement. Anything that makes that stream of > experience more difficult to manage is… well … annoying. Drug experiences, > extreme experiences of any kind, do not fill me with wonder. If you take a > large chunk of flint stone and bash it on an anvil it shatters into … well > … *flints. *Hitting the human mind with a drug-hammer, or a starvation > hammer, a near-death hammer, or even a sleep-hammer is like that. Yes, I > suppose, it tells you something about the structure of the thing you are > hitting, but I don’t suppose, with my Puritan mindset, that it tells me > ANYTHING about the Universe. Good LORD. Why would it? > > > > I know that Prufrock was Ironic, but I still take some odd perverse > pleasure in … > > > > I grow old, I grow old, I shall wear the bottoms of my > trousers rolled. … > > Do I dare to eat a peach? > > I shall wear white flannel trousers and walk upon the > beach. > > I have heard the mermaids singing each to each. > > I do not think that they will sing for me. > > > > Sometimes I feel like your crazy uncle at Thanksgiving*. *Even though I > was a little kid during WWII, I still feel like I *fought* for your > sanity. And now you find joy and wisdom in madness?! I am a 50’s > Apollonian in a nest of 70’s Dionysians. > > Yes. I know. *Sad! * > > > > *Nick * > > > > *PS: *OK. It’s time I read some Geertz first-hand. Assign me > something. Not too much, please. N. > > > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Prof David West [mailto:profw...@fastmail.fm] > Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2019 8:14 AM > To: nick thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> > Subject: post you seem to have missed from FRIAM > > > > Nick said: > > > > *"What struck me about them was how many of them held the view that > reality was beyond experience: i.e., that our experience provided clues to > reality, but the thing itself was beyond experience. I never could > convince them that that their belief in a reality beyond experience had to > be based on … experience. So, why not be monists, and talk about > organizations of experience. Ultimately, it was their dualism that > confirmed me in my monism."* > > > > How about an assertion that there is A Reality beyond "ordinary" > experience; with "ordinary experience" being the half-dozen or so overt > > *[NST==>what is a covert sensory experience? <==nst] * > > sensory inputs (sight, sound, balance, touch, taste, smell) we typically > associate with experience. > > > > Given a different set of inputs — e.g. emotions, hallucinations, visions, > dreams — must we assume that we are still experiencing the same Reality as > that experienced with overt sensory inputs; or, is the door open to an > alternative Reality even if Reality-A and Reality-B have significant but > not total congruence? We are still experiencing, so your experiential > monism is intact, but Reality is dualist/pluralist. > > *[NST==>Well, to a monist there is, in your sense, no reality at all! > Reality is an aspiration. Reality is what arises from the management of > experience. Given our generational difference, I sometimes wonder if you > don’t take for granted the reality that I am fighting for. <==nst] * > > > > Or, suppose there are a set of inputs, of the same Reality, that are not > included in the overt set (sight, taste, et. al.). Previously it was noted > that the eye can detect a single photon (and we can "sense" other quantum > level phenomena). You asserted that such sensory inputs would be "lost in > the noise" of the functioning organism and hence are not "experienced." Is > this not a case of a detectable/sensible Reality beyond experience? > > > > A corollary: can there be "experiences" — a set of stimulus-response pairs > — not included in the overt senses, and not describable in ordinary > > *[NST==>What is extra-ordinary language? <==nst] * > > language? Obviously, I am talking about "mystical" experiences such as > "being in the zone" or lower-case s, satori, or even upper-case s, Satori > (aka enlightenment). It is important to note that these are > stimulus-response events, not necessarily "experiences;" as experience, in > ordinary language, necessarily implies an experience-r, and in the examples > I am thinking about, there is no "I" and hence no experience-r. > > > > AND, > > > > *"By the way, Geertz is probably the locus classicus of the relativism I > deplore."* > > > > Sir! Them's fightin words!!! > > > > But I forgive you, as you clearly misunderstand Geertz (one of my personal > heroes). Nothing he says is "relativist." His observations and conclusions > are, however, hermeneutic. Geertz merely points out a fact — there are no > cross cultural universals (except one, that I will get to in just a > moment), nor are there any "objective" criteria for asserting primacy or > privilege of one culture over another. From this comes an indictment of > ethnocentrism as one culture stating that "obviously" our values, our ways > of doing things, our worldview, our customs ... are superior to yours, > correct while yours are erroneous, etc. > > > > Hermeneuticism is NOT relativism. > > > > The one cultural universal: every culture (obviously not every individual > in every culture) incorporates a belief in the "supernatural." In all but, > maybe, 2-3, cultures the "supernatural" includes an alternative realm of > existence (pre- and/or after-life or "other planes." The, interpretations > of this universal are multiple - pretty much one per culture/subculture. > > > > davew > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
