Nick, This seems to be an issue of Wittgenstein's Lion <http://existentialcomics.com/comic/245>
—R On Tue, Jan 8, 2019 at 11:04 AM Nick Thompson <nickthomp...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Once again, I am lost in my own thread. > > > > I will say this: often it seems, with both Marcus, and Glen, and even > Owen and Steve, and to a lesser extent Dave West, that their (your) > thinking is rooted in models from coding and because I have never been a > coder those models are utterly unavailable to me. I have always ... since > childhood ...believed that if I worked hard enough at something I could > understand it. And so, almost 14 years ago, when I was cast loose in Santa > Fe, and Steve and Owen and Carl and Frank took me into that jammed freezing > cold office on Agua Fria. They fed me when I was intellectually hungry and > comforted me when I was intellectually lonely, *and in gratitude, I was > determined to understand their mindset.* But despite all that I have > learned since that time, I have come to admit that there are probably > chasms of thought too deep for people to reach across … or, at least, > people like me, at this age. I simply lack the models, the commonplace > toys of thought, with which you guys so effortlessly play. > > > > I will keep trying, of course, But I thought, perhaps, being the New Year > and all, now was a moment to stop and thank FRIAM members for your > patience, your indulgence, and your profound commitment to *teaching *that > has kept me alert and engaged *and alive *these last 14 years. > > > > Nick > > > > Nicholas S. Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology > > Clark University > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of ? u??? > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2019 8:48 AM > To: FriAM <friam@redfish.com> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Motives - Was Abduction > > > > Excellent! I like everything you've said below. In fact, were we able to > clearly talk about heterarchies as explicitly externalizing controls, where > hierarchies leave the source(s) of control ambiguous, then we'd map nicely > back to Marcus' example of "serializing" a recursive function into a tree > walkable by a single control pointer. And we'd also be able to discuss > Rosen's conception of separating a closure of agency from (an openness to) > the other types of cause (material, formal, and final). > > > > The concept of a heterarchy facilitates the discussion of systemic > behaviors like motive as separable into sets of distinct causes and > structures in a way the concept of hierarchy does not. > > > > On 1/7/19 6:12 PM, Eric Charles wrote: > > > Thanks for the clarification. I intentionally said Nick was invoking > > > *something like "levels of analysis" talk, *because I thought I > > > recalled Nick telling me at some point that he didn't like that way of > > > thinking, and I'm surprised he hasn't disavowed me more completely on > > > it. All metaphors are imperfect, and, acknowledging that, I still like > > > that way of talking a lot. > > > While you are quite right that tissue isn't literally JUST an > > > arrangement of cells, it *is *pretty fair to say tissue is an bunch of > > > cells arranged-in-a-structured-fashion and interconnected by various > > > inter-cellular structures.... organs are a bunch of tissues > > > arranged-in-a-structured-fashion and interconnected by various > > > inter-tissue structures, etc. > > > > > > At any rate... trying to follow your lead, and translate your > > > preferred sentence structure to be more like what (I assert) Nick is > thinking: > > > > > > Motives ARE a particular type of pattern in a behavior-by-environment > > > matrix. > > > > > > As a "point of view" based Realism, which Nick has been trying to > > > emphasize, it is true that there are many ways the > > > behavior-by-environment matrix can be constructed and arranged. Some > > > of those ways will reveal the relevant pattern in some instances, > > > others will not. The particular pattern is one in which the behavior > > > vary across circumstances so as to stay directed towards the > > > production of a particular outcome. This sounds very similar to "One > > > of the definitions of "heterarchy" is that the components can be > > > organized in multiple ways" but if I understood the prior discussion > > > of "heterarchy", I take it that concept is about a flexibility in > > > control/leadership, whereas no control is implied here (control being > > > a different pattern in a different matrix). The cause of the pattern > > > is a different matter entirely from the existence of the pattern - > > > which is expressly part of the point of Nick's way of approaching it, > i.e.,that a "motive" must be identifiable independent of a particular cause. > > > > -- > > ∄ uǝʃƃ > > > > ============================================================ > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
