Yes, and systems can have subsystems. In my comment to Glen, my point was that a phase space is a description of a single system.
-S _______________________________________________________________________ stephen.gue...@simtable.com <stephen.gue...@simtable.com> CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 office: (505)995-0206 mobile: (505)577-5828 twitter: @simtable On Sat, May 27, 2017 at 7:07 PM, Frank Wimberly <wimber...@gmail.com> wrote: > For what it’s worth, a linear space can have a subspace that is a linear > space. Both the larger and smaller spaces are linear spaces. Of course > “linear space” is much more precisely defined than “system”. > > > > Frank > > > > > > Frank C. Wimberly > > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz > > Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > > > wimber...@gmail.com wimbe...@cal.berkeley.edu > > Phone: (505) 995-8715 Cell: (505) 670-9918 > > > > *From:* Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen > Guerin > *Sent:* Friday, May 26, 2017 6:40 PM > *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Any non-biological complex systems? > > > > Glen writes: > > Not quite. If these systems merely contain subsystems capable of > exhibiting complexity, then those 3 you listed are not complex systems. > They are "subsystems capable of exhibiting complexity". So, no. They are > not complex systems in isolation. Russ' question, I think, targets > naturally occurring, whole complex systems. > > > > We disagree on the use of systems and subsystems in the context of phase > space then. To me, there is one system and that system has a phase space - > There are not multiple subsystems in the phase space. And as there are > multiple use of phase space I mean it in this sense: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phase_space > > The phase space can also refer to the space that is parametrized by the > *macroscopic* states of the system, such as pressure, temperature, etc. > For instance, one may view the pressure-volume diagram or > entropy-temperature diagrams as describing part of this phase space. A > point in this phase space is correspondingly called a macrostate. There may > easily be more than one microstate with the same macrostate. For example, > for a fixed temperature, the system could have many dynamic configurations > at the microscopic level. When used in this sense, a phase is a region of > phase space where the system in question is in, for example, the liquid > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid> phase, or solid > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid> phase, etc. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > stephen.gue...@simtable.com <stephen.gue...@simtable.com> > > CEO, Simtable http://www.simtable.com > > 1600 Lena St #D1, Santa Fe, NM 87505 > > office: (505)995-0206 <(505)%20995-0206> mobile: (505)577-5828 > <(505)%20577-5828> > > twitter: @simtable > > > > On Fri, May 26, 2017 at 6:08 PM, glen ☣ <geprope...@gmail.com> wrote: > > On 05/26/2017 04:54 PM, Stephen Guerin wrote: > > I am listening to Russ. I do think he's defining a sub-class of complex > > systems (eg living systems). I would like to keep the definition of > > "complex systems" broader than that though. > > OK. But I don't think he's necessarily _asserting_ that only living > systems are complex systems. He's just asking the question and engaging in > a discussion wherein we might be able to refine his sub-category so that it > includes physical systems. > > > I understand the subtle distinction your trying to make. I would say the > > full phase space of a *complex system* has narrow critical regimes in > their > > behavior (phase) space where *complex behavior* is observed as the > control > > parameters are swept through the phase transition. In the critical regime > > we see complex behavior like sensitivity to initial conditions, critical > > slowing down, critical fluctuations, power law statistics, long-range > > correlations, etc. On either side of the phase transition (eg > sub-critical > > and super-critical) regimes, these statistics and behaviors are not > present. > > > > That said, while the critical regime may be narrow in phase space many of > > these system "self-tune" to the critical point but that's another thread. > > > > Agreed? > > Not quite. If these systems merely contain subsystems capable of > exhibiting complexity, then those 3 you listed are not complex systems. > They are "subsystems capable of exhibiting complexity". So, no. They are > not complex systems in isolation. Russ' question, I think, targets > naturally occurring, whole complex systems. > > Now, if we add the experimental apparatus that, eg, maintains a ZB > reaction for a long time, then that _whole_ system can be called a complex > system. But there's significant meat to the controlling subsystem ... and > we biological creatures instantiated it. The case is the same with, say, > glycolysys. > > All you need do is identify the circumstances where those three processes > (ferromag, benard cells, BZ reactions) occur in nature and then we might be > able to identify the systems in which they sit. Then we can test them > against whatever predicate we want. > > > -- > ☣ glen > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove >
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
