Russ -
I think your message got lost in the "uncanny valley"... the
conversation has been so rich that this contribution (by the instigating
author of the thread) did get lost to it's relative obviousness. I
know *I* read through it and nodded my head but instead felt compelled
to respond to SG's post which *was* (I think) in response to this.
I have suggested a new thread and this type of question (dual-worldness)
would probably be central to it. I do hope others weigh in.
- Steve
On 5/28/17 1:58 PM, Russ Abbott wrote:
I'm wondering whether the message below got lost. Our did no one think
it worth mentioning?
On May 28, 2017 6:35 PM, "Russ Abbott" <russ.abb...@gmail.com
<mailto:russ.abb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Greetings from Jerusalem! Quite an amazing city. Never been here
before. Quite an amazing discussion too.
My interest, I think, is not so much in defining what we (want to)
mean by a complex system buy in exploring the implications of
systems consisting of agents as described earlier. The ability to
process symbols seems to me to make all the difference in the world.
Physical entities capable of processing symbols seem to me to live
it two worlds: the physical and the symbolic. (The original
question was prompted by the notion that complexity requires that
sort of dual worldness. But that's not my core concern. You can
probably get pretty far wrt complexity in a world that includes
switches, where by a switch I mean one energy flow that controls
another, a light switch for example. So systems of multiple energy
flows where one controls another like weather and geology are good
candidates.)
Symbolic processing, including computers, is a step beyond
switches. Half a century ago Newell and Simon defined computers as
physical symbol machines. We and many biological organisms are
physical symbol machines also. I think that's an important way to
look at it.
The thing about physical symbol machines is that the rules of
causation they follow are more complex than those of physics.
That's enough rambling for now on my cell phone.
On May 28, 2017 6:04 PM, "Stephen Guerin"
<stephen.gue...@simtable.com <mailto:stephen.gue...@simtable.com>>
wrote:
Marcos writes;
Depending on which J values are zero, there can one phase
space or many independent phase spaces depending on how
many disconnected components there are.
I agree with a small tweak.
Yes, the subgraphs would have their own independent phase
spaces (especially if topologies were dissimilar). Though, I
would not call the independent subgraphs components as they
are no longer part of a larger whole. If the subgraphs are
independent and not interacting you cease to have one
system. You have multiple independent systems each with their
own phase spaces.
I'll wrap with my position:
* I gave three examples of non-biological complex systems
based on Russ's initial question
* Russ's additional criteria later in the thread are similar
to distinguishing criteria for complex living systems vs
complex non-living systems. This is an area of research
I'm fascinated with and I encourage this line of discussion
* If I need to use Russ's criteria, I can't think of a
non-biological example. To me it's like asking for a
non-biological example of a living system.
* I disagree with Russ's claim that all complex systems must
satisfy his criteria to be a complex system. It is too
limiting.
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