Owen,
Speaking as an academic, I agree with you that too many schools
believe they need a single language and are driven by pure market
conditions - i.e. what language will look best on a graduate's
resume.
In my program we require students to demonstrate proficiency
(write thousands of lines of code) in four languages: a scripting
language, a procedural language, a declarative language, and an
object language (and no, Java is not even close to being an
object language). [We have not decided if functional is a fifth
group or a variation on procedural or declaritive as far as the
"thinking paradigm" required.] Which language is chosed within
those groups is mostly irrelevant, except as it best suits a
specific problem domain (.e.g C or C++ for telecom).
Interestingly, the only empirical research of which I am aware as
to what is a Good Answer - was done at Carelton (in Canada):
Their research showed that students learning Smalltalk as their
first language picked up a second language (did not matter if it
was procedural or declarative) about 50% faster than if the first
language was Pascal (remember that one?) - and Pascal was created
specifically to be a good teaching language. Conversely if
students took a procedural (C, Java, Pascal) as their first
language, it took them almost 100% longer to become proficient in
Smalltalk and about 60% longer to become proficient in Lisp.
COBOL was an interesting anomaly - If COBOL was the first
language, Smalltak came much easier, but Lisp was still a big
cognitive leap.
The Carleton research also showed that Smalltalk-First led to a
deeper understanding of programming in general.
The biggest drawback to Smalltalk-First arises from the fact
that, in Smalltalk, you never use things like nested or Boolean
IFs and no loops and cyclomatic complexity was an order of
magnitude lower on average - so moving to a different language
almost always felt like descending into swamp of tedious and
verbose complications.
[[ While I am being opinionated - Design (decomposition and
distribution of knowledge and behavior), not programming
language, is the real key - proper design makes the coding almost
trivial. (I am in the midst of a hot and heated argument with my
colleagues in the Software Craftsmanship (they are all about code
and programming) movement about this right now - and doing a
presentation to about a hundred professional developers in Mpls
next week. ]]
dave west
On Thu, 29 Jul 2010 10:28 -0600, "Owen Densmore"
<o...@backspaces.net> wrote:
I think the key problem is that schools feel they need to choose
just ONE language. And it has to be Important and Liked By
Industry and Used By Other Classes.
MIT has a different approach: use Scheme for introductory
classes. It's little used outside of schools, but great for
teaching purposes.
There is no Good Answer, because there are so many different
languages for a good reason. Consider PHP. It became the web
site language because the only other choice at the time seemed to
be Java, which is Too Hard. But you'd be mad to consider it for
building scientific visualization apps (or nearly anything
outside of the web).
Consider Processing, our 3D programming language. It is Basic
Java, i.e. Java w/o many of it's irritations. Again, built by
MIT, it is specialized to be of use to designers. Ditto NetLogo
for modeling.
So any hip school should simply follow the MIT model, and forget
about The Right Language. Instead, simply teach Programming,
possibly with several languages!
---- Owen
I am an iPad, resistance is futile!
On Jul 28, 2010, at 4:22 PM, Edward Angel <[1]an...@cs.unm.edu>
wrote:
I'd worry about about how to use that number. The prevailing view
in both academic departments and industry is that Java is on its
way out. For the kinds of things that Java is good at, scripting
languages have advanced so much that they are replacing Java. For
large scale applications, industry never used Java.
It's a major problem for schools that have their whole curriculum
in Java. When their students graduate they find the job
opportunities can be very limited if they don't have experience
with other languages like C++. For our students that are not CS
majors but need to know some programming, the demand ranges from
C++ and Matlab for engineering majors to python for the animation
industry with a lot movement towards java script.
It's interesting that all the feedback I get from industry is
that they (like us academics) hate C++ but they have yet to find
a suitable replacement for large scale programming jobs such as
developing and maintaining a game engine.
Ed
__________
Ed Angel
Chair, Board of Directors, Santa Fe Complex
Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science
Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico
1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [2]an...@cs.unm.edu
505-453-4944 (cell) [3]http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
[4]http://artslab.unm.edu
[5]http://sfcomplex.org
On Jul 28, 2010, at 1:52 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
ACM Technotes reported today:
Java/J2EE is the programming and developing skill in most demand
with more than 14,000 open job positions nationally, according to
a July report from IT job board Dice.
-- rec --
On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 1:39 PM, Grant Holland
<[6]grant.holland...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dave,
What is your opinion about certification in the Java world at
this point?
Grant
Prof David West wrote:
Pamela, my replies do not seem to get posted to the list, so I included
your direct address.
There is no rating or accrediting body for certifications. The ACM/IEEE
could and perhaps should do this, but they have a conflict of interest
in that they offer their own set of certifications.
You are absolutely correct that the quality of the programs varies
significantly - some vendor certifications, like Cisco's, have a very
good reputation and they also certify trainers. Others, like Scrum
Master are hideous jokes (I am a "Certified Scrum Master). Microsoft
Certs are in the middle, good except when the right answer conflicts
with Microsofts answer in which case right loses to might.
A lot of universities, especially two-year schools offer courses that
are, in effect, certification test preparation.
If you let me know what certifications you are most interested in, I
might be able to provide some direction.
dave west
On Wed, 28 Jul 2010 12:00 -0600, "Pamela McCorduck" [7]<[8]pam...@well.co
m>
wrote:
Does there exist a rating agency or group that rates IT certification
programs the way several such groups exist for colleges and universities?
My son-in-law wishes to upgrade his skills, but we're very concerned that
some of the programs are nothing but fancy scams.
Thanks,
Pamela
"God keep me from ever completing anything. This whole book is but a
draft--nay, but the draft of a draft. Oh, Time, Strength, Cash, and
Patience!"
Melville, "Moby Dick"
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--
Grant Holland
VP, Product Development and Software Engineering
NuTech Solutions
404.427.4759
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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[11]http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
[12]http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at [13]http://www.friam.org
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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References
1. mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu
2. mailto:an...@cs.unm.edu
3. http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel
4. http://artslab.unm.edu/
5. http://sfcomplex.org/
6. mailto:grant.holland...@gmail.com
7. mailto:pam...@well.com
8. mailto:pam...@well.com
9. http://www.friam.org/
10. http://www.friam.org/
11. http://www.friam.org/
12. http://www.friam.org/
13. http://www.friam.org/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
