2011/7/12 Milos Rancic <mill...@gmail.com> > On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 11:47, M. Williamson <node...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Milos, it is a fantasy of many that is not supported by research, that > just > > because people are rich or have technology, their language will magically > > not die. > > I wouldn't say that it is a fantasy, but bold speculation :D > > I am not saying that wealth is the most important factor, not even > technology in general, but enormously increased level of communication > during the last 10-15 years, which is not counted inside of the > present researches. > Present research actually indicates the decline of linguistic diversity has accelerated in the last 10-15 years, possibly due to the exact factor you seem to think is doing the opposite. Wider connectivity is an additional strong motivator to adopt a LWC for most. Communications technology and rural connectivity are killing languages that were once thought to be safe due to geographic isolation. This is to say nothing of urban settings, which have been killing languages for thousands of years.
> From what I see during the last dozen of years, many languages are in > the process of revival: Celtic languages, some Uralic languages etc. > Cases of Manx and Livonian are impressive, for example. When I heard > for the first time about revival of Welsh, I was thinking that it is a > noble, but fruitless attempt. However, it is not anymore an exception, > but such revivals are occurring at more and more places. > One thing that unites all the cases you've noted except for Welsh are hobbyists. When the only thing keeping a language alive is the fact that the entire speaker population is dedicating all of their energy and most of their free time to keep it from dying, it's an exceptional case. So you've given me examples of a few languages in Europe that aren't dying, this is a classical logical fallacy. Basically, in spite of research and piles of anecdotal evidence, you seem convinced that because there are a handful of cases that appear to go against the trend, the trend itself must not exist. That's simply not the way statistics work. A trend is still perfectly valid if it's followed by hundreds of languages, just because a few languages seem exceptional cases (although I would argue none of them _actually_ are exceptional, besides perhaps Welsh), does not mean anything for the rest of the world's languages. That's like if I said "Two thousand years ago, there were around 15,000 languages on this planet. Over half of those are permanently extinct." and you retorted with the case of Hebrew, alleging that similar cases were likely to occur with Akkadian, Sumerian, and every other dead language. Now when you say "Celtic languages", which ones do you mean? Irish and Scots Gaelic are receding daily, despite the claims of their defenders. Breton is in serious trouble, and Manx and Cornish, although undergoing hobbyist revivals, seem unlikely to ever reach more than a few hundred native speakers. Welsh is doing alright for now, thanks in large part to the fact that it is supported by an autonomous regional government, which very, very few endangered languages enjoy, and the fact that people decided to "save" it when it still had plenty of speakers. But again, Welsh is the exception rather than the rule, one drop of language survival in a sea of languages speeding towards extinction. > living native language through many generations. Sorbian languages are > the example. No, it won't be used very actively, but it will survive > as a language of specific culture and because of identity purposes. > Manx, Livonian and many indigenous languages have chances to survive > like that. Welsh has chances to survive as fully recovered language. > I wonder how long Sorbian will actually survive as a full language. I think it's unlikely that Sorbians will never marry non-speakers. According to Ethnologue, Sorbian languages are both spoken by "mostly older adults". So your shining example that you repeat of language survival is actually not that. I wonder how many Sorbian native speakers there are of my generation. Now I wonder how many of them will speak Sorbian to _their_ children. Now what about the grandchildren? Livonian, I'm wondering where you're getting this information from. By most accounts, it's got between 10 and 0 native speakers and is now used by some hobbyists only. > > This process is repeating itself around the world, not just with poor and > > illiterate people, but also with rich and well-read people who find more > > economic and social benefits in using a LWC. This is unfortunate, but so > far > > nobody has been able to find a remedy, and just writing encyclopedias in > > minority languages doesn't seem like a viable solution to the problem of > > language attrition and death, although perhaps it helps to raise the > > prestige a bit. > > Not just encyclopedias, but books, dictionaries, even news sources. > All of that is inside of our job description. But not just that: > gathering active community around Wikimedia projects is almost the > ticket for language survival. > This strategy couldn't help languages where speakers are already all bilingual. When there is a large number of monolinguals, this strategy still won't help much, as our job description doesn't include hiring interpreters for government workers and businessmen, or for people from rural villages when they go to sell crops at a market town. You are putting too much emphasis on a faulty idea that books kill or save languages. No matter how many books I can read in, say, Manx, there's still the fact that I can only talk to a couple hundred people in that language and there's no community where I can conduct my whole life exclusively in Manx. Or how about Romani in Serbia: if I want to rent a flat in Belgrade, I'll not be able to do it in Romani. If I want to go to a supermarket, or go buy parts for my computer or my car, or go to a meeting for alcoholics, or stamp collectors, or take classes at university, I won't be able to use Romani. That is what kills languages, and until we as an organization can find a solution to that problem, we can't solve the problem of language death. _______________________________________________ foundation-l mailing list foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
