> On 18 May 2019, at 00:21, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 5/16/2019 11:51 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Thursday, May 16, 2019 at 5:14:46 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 1:48 PM Philip Thrift <[email protected] >> <javascript:>> wrote: >> >> > Information processing absent actual first-class entities of qualia (or >> > experiences) can only produce zombies. One needs information processing >> > operating in a material substrate where those entities are available to be >> > combined and manipulated. >> >> So something can behave intelligently but if it is lacking "first-class >> entities of qualia" it can only be a intelligent zombie. But "first-class >> qualia" sounds like consciousness to me, so you're basically saying only >> conscious things can be conscious. A tautology has the virtue of always >> being true but it involves a unnecessary non-required pointless repetition >> and reiteration of words where you end up at the exact same place you >> started with. And that is typical of all consciousness theories. >> >> John K Clark >> >> >> >> >> To be clearer: Qualia (the "ingredients" of consciousness) cannot be reduced >> to information processing. > > That's nothing but unsupported assertion. It's not even clear what "reduced" > means in that context.
Nor is “information processing”, but I guess it means some 3p number crunching. With mechanism, qualia are not associated univocally with anything 3p describable. The arithmetical reality is full of truth about some machines not definable in term accessible by those machines. But the machines already knows that. > >> (That is what I mean by "first-class". If qualia could be reduced to >> information processing, then they would derivative from information, or >> "second-class".) > > Is life derivative from chemistry? Only within a certain environment. Same > with information processing. In general it's streams of bits being processed > being changed according to some algorithm. But it's qualia if the streams > are in some entity whose environment and actions give meaning to the > information, like "I've got a headache and I'm going to lie down.” The meaning is the intended environment, but the machine canot decide if it is “real”, or a dream. I suspect you are using some magical quality of the environment, and it is unclear at this stage if this departs from mechanism or not. Nor is it clear if the environment needs to be physical, theological, or arithmetical. A part of your insight makes a lot of sense, and is indeed what makes the difference between []p and []p & p, or []p & <>t. “p” add the reference to truth, in some meta local manner, and <>t refer to a reality (making the machine consistent), which plays the role of the “added” environment. G* proves that such nuances are equivalent, but G does not prove this, so the machine experiences them very differently ([]p & p imposes intuitionist logic, []p & <>t (p sigma_1) imposes quantum logic, etc. Bruno > > Brent > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/565a39fb-288a-731e-4042-99cd23216091%40verizon.net > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/565a39fb-288a-731e-4042-99cd23216091%40verizon.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/24A90183-A1DC-4EF6-8119-AD83D0544EF4%40ulb.ac.be.
