On 19 Feb 2014, at 22:50, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On Thursday, February 20, 2014, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 19 Feb 2014, at 17:18, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On 18/02/2014, David Nyman <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I think if I say consciousness is an epiphenomenon of
biochemistry I
>> should also say that life is.
>
>
> And should you not go on to say that biochemistry is an
epiphenomenon of
> physics and physics is an epiphenomenon of .... well, something
that is not
> itself epiphenomenal, I guess? The way you formulate the problem
seems to
> tend to the conclusion that any and all appearances should
strictly be
> considered an epiphenomenon of something more fundamental that
cannot
> possibly be encountered directly. And, moreover, there is no
entailment
> that any such something be straightforwardly isomorphic with any
of those
> appearances. I'm not saying that this view is incoherent, by the
way, but
> do you agree that something like this is entailed by what you say?
I'm making a case for reductionism. If biochemistry necessarily
leads to consciousness
Biochemistry or anything Turing universal.
then I don't think this is any different to the situation where
biochemistry necessarily leads to life.
Ah!
But then life is clearly a 3p phenomenon, so why make consciousness
an epiphenomenon? Of course consciousness is "only" a 1p phenomenon,
but it can make sense (indeed as a sense maker or receptor).
Bruno
Maybe the 1p/3p distinction is a failure of imagination.
What could that mean? The diary of the M-guy and of the W-guy do
differentiate, and are different from the memory and records of the
observer which does not enter in the telebox.
I am not sure what sense to give to your statement.
Likewise, the math 3p ([]p) and 1p ([]p & p) *does* obey different
logic. And, yes, it is due to a failure of the machine to see that
they are equivalent (as seen by G*), but it is not a failure of
imagination, it is a requirement to remain consistent.
It's obvious that the phenomenon of life is "no more" than the
biochemistry,
Actually I disagree with this. Life can be implemented in
biochemistry, but is much more than biochemistry, for the same reason
that Deep blue chess abilities is much more than the logic of NAND
used to implement it. Life and chess ability can be implemented by
other means, and *are* implemented by infinitely many other means in
arithmetic. Eventually we face the problem of justifying biochemistry,
and matter appearance, from a statistic on arithmetic, and this can
explain where matter appearance come from.
To say hat life is no more than biochemistry makes local sense, but if
taken too much seriously, you will condemn yourself to say that
biochemistry is no more than addition and multiplication of integers,
or is no more than reduction and application of combinators.
but maybe if we could simulate the biochemistry in our heads we
would intuitively see any 1p aspect it has as well.
Are you not doing "Searle" error? A person can simulate the chinese
person does not entail that the person can experience the chinese
person feeling.
Robinson Arithmetic can simulate Peano Arithmetic, but this does not
entail that Robinson Arithmetic can prove what Peano Arithmetic can
prove. And all the points of view will depend on proof, not on
computation or imitation, even if they play a big role. I hope I will
be able to clarify this important point in the modal thread.
You seem to push reductionism too far (too far with respect to
computationalism).
Bruno
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Stathis Papaioannou
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