Jesse, OK, here's another question to get to the crux.
You claim the twins "meet in the same point of spacetime". OK, if that's a real point in spacetime it MUST have a t-coordinate. What is the value of that t-coordinate? And what's the relation of that t-coordinate to the different clock time t-coordinates of the twins? What's the transform that converts the two different clock time t values to the SAME same point t value? I say there isn't any, that relativity can't supply one. And that this means that, while relativity can arbitrarily DEFINE a same moment in spacetime as you do, it can NOT explain or calculate it. Only my p-time theory does this, relativity doesn't.... Response? Edgar On Thursday, February 6, 2014 5:06:55 PM UTC-5, jessem wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]<javascript:> > > wrote: > >> Jesse, >> >> Once again, for the nth time, you are making statements about CLOCK time >> simultaneity with which I agree. That has nothing to do with the same >> present moment of p-time. >> > > Because you were *asking* about whether relativity can give a coherent > account of what phrases like "same point in spacetime" and "same coordinate > time" really mean physically, that was what this whole tangent was about > until you suddenly switched to explaining how things work in your own > theories (and even then it seemed like the discussion of your own theories > was meant to be confined to the comments in square quotes). You even > started off the post that I was responding to with "OK, let's see if I > understand your coordinate spacetime model the same way you do"--*my* > coordinate spacetime model (i.e. the standard relativistic one as > understood by physicists), not your own p-time model. Then after some > extended discussion you said "Does this model [ignoring my peripheral > comments in square quotes] express what you mean by coordinate time?" > > Perhaps you could address just the last paragraph of my post, which was > specifically about whether you were still maintaining there was some > inherent (non-metaphysical) incoherence in "my" model: > > 'You seem to be just giving a lecture about how things work in your own > metaphysical view, rather than trying to understand how a physicist using > relativity can coherently talk about the two twins having different ages at > the "same time" or at the "same point in spacetime", which I thought was > the original point of your post at > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/jFX-wTm_E_Q/I29-svr5V70Jwhere > you said "How does your theory, or relativity, account for or predict > this same point with different clock times starting from when the one twin > leaves on his journey? Is there any choice of frames which computes this > result in relativity theory? If so what? If not then we must assume a > separate kind of time in which it is true. That is p-time." Leaving aside > your metaphysics for the moment, do you actually think there is anything > internally incoherent the description I've given about what it means to say > the twins' two different clock readings can happen at the same coordinate > time (using local readings on coordinate clocks of the type I described), > or can coincide at the same point in spacetime (using the operational > definition I gave earlier)? Are you satisfied that relativity theory can > give a coherent operational account of the meaning of these phrases even if > you find the account unsatisfying metaphysically? If so, then it's > obviously not true that we "must" assume p-time to explain things like the > twin experiment, even if you might *prefer* to explain it by making use of > such an assumption. If you're not satisfied with my operational account, > please give a critique which focuses only on the flaws or undefined > elements you see in that account, without making any reference to your own > alternate account involving p-time and "clocks running at c" and so forth.' > > Jesse > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
