So how do you explain that gravitational effects escape a black hole. And while you are at it explain how electrostatics are instantaneous.
On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 9:00 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: > Richard, > > No, that's not correct. Gravitation is NOT faster than the speed of light. > Once a gravitational field is established it is remains there only so long > as the mass that produces it is. Remove that mass and the removal of the > associated gravitational force propagates at the speed of light as ALL > gravitational changes (effects) do. > > So if the sun were to vanish, it would still keep the earth in its orbit > for 8 minutes... > > Edgar > > On Saturday, January 25, 2014 8:52:17 AM UTC-5, yanniru wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Edgar L. Owen <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Brent, >>> >>> Obviously the space outside a black hole event horizon is warped. That's >>> experimentally confirmed. My question is HOW does it become warped from the >>> mass inside the black hole which you now claim doesn't even exist? There >>> must be some cause. It's much more reasonable to assume the mass that >>> enters a black hole does exist inside the black hole as it does produce a >>> gravitational effect. My question is how that gravitational effect, which >>> must travel at the speed of light, propagate from the interior of the black >>> hole when nothing else can because it would have to travel at FASTER than >>> the speed of light to do so? >>> >> >> Gravitation like electrostatics is faster than the speed of light- >> seemingly instantaneous >> >>> >>> Re your implication of gravitation perhaps not being mediated by force >>> carrying particles. I think there are a number of reasons to doubt the >>> existence of gravitons. >>> >>> 1. For a flow of gravitons to explain gravity they would all >>> continuously have to flow in the same direction since gravity acts only in >>> one direction (between masses at least). That means there would have to be >>> an inexhaustible source of gravitons flowing from ONLY OUT from every mass. >>> What's the source of that inexhaustible flow? >>> >>> 2. Gravity is the only force that cannot be shielded. Thus if gravitons >>> existed they would have to flow effortlessly THROUGH everything that exists >>> (NON-interaction) at the same time they cause gravitational effects >>> (INTERACTION). An apparent contradiction.... >>> >>> 3. There is no empirical evidence whatsoever that gravitons actually >>> exist. >>> >>> 4. Gravitons are not part of the Standard Model. >>> >>> So all and all I think there is plenty of reason to doubt the existence >>> of gravitons... >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, January 24, 2014 10:31:41 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>>> >>>> On 1/24/2014 4:41 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote: >>>> > Brent, >>>> > >>>> > No, my proposed dark matter effect has nothing to do with black >>>> holes. Black holes are >>>> > caused by accumulations of actual visible matter, not by the Hubble >>>> expansion of space... >>>> > >>>> > However I do have a question for you. Since gravitational changes >>>> propagate at the speed >>>> > of light how does the mass inside a black hole produce gravitational >>>> effects outside the >>>> > black hole? If light can't come out how can gravitational effects >>>> come out? >>>> >>>> You are thinking of gravity as mediated by force particles, like >>>> photons mediate the EM >>>> forces. But (at least classically) gravity isn't a force, it's just a >>>> shape of space and >>>> as I responded to Liz, there's not mass in a black hole, no T_u_v term >>>> in the Einstein >>>> equation. It's a vacuum solution. That's why it doesn't make any >>>> different what falls in >>>> to create the black hole. The effects outside the event horizon are >>>> just that the space >>>> is warped there just *as if* the black hole were a massive object. >>>> >>>> Brent >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >>> >> >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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