TERREN: Hi Roger, Autopoeisis says there is a boundary between the environment and the system through which no information crosses (structural closure)...
ROGER: OK, it is alive. TERREN: if we apply that model to our nervous system, we can say that the reality we experience is a construction, a virtual reality dynamically generated by the brain as it organizes the signals coming from our sense neurons. ROGER: OK, the world we see is phenomenal. TERREN: We see this in the nervous system in the sense that nerves are "line-labelled". It doesn't matter how the photoreceptors are stimulated - whether by light or pressure, the result is a visual quale (as when you rub your eyes hard). Likewise, thermoreceptors stimulated by heat or by capsaisin both result in the quale of 'hotness'. ROGER: You know more about this than I do. Sounds reasonable, except my concept of quale is that they are the raw unprocessed input signals. TERREN: So to your point that autopoeitic structure only applies to 3p models, I agree, but if we accept that consciousness arises from, or is the inside-view of, certain 3p structures, then theorizing about those 3p structures can yield testable claims about consciousness. ROGER: That is the main thrust of the discussion here. In my view, there is the subjective experience (which I am trying to understand), and then there is the description of that experience, I think we call 3p, which I think is what most people (and autopoesis (?)) use. I know there are loose ends in my thought, I'm still trying to clarify it. Terren On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Terren Suydam > > IMHO autopoesis, like all of AI, is a tool for the public, objective world > (Thirdness) > That is fine, but the real nitty-gritty (such as mind or consciousness) > dwells in subjective experiences (quale) (Firstness). So I don't find > autopoesis that useful or profound. > > er Clough, [email protected] > 10/17/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Terren Suydam > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-16, 11:37:05 > Subject: Re: Re: Re: autopoesis > > > Hi Russell, > > I think if autopoeisis has failed to achieve some practical measure, > it is a reflection of how under-developed our collective toolbox is > for working with complexity and holistic systems in general. Imaginary > numbers are a good example of an idea whose practical measure didn't > emerge until well after its conception. > > Thanks for the link to Barry McMullin... interesting stuff. > > Terren > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Russell Standish wrote: >> Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of >> what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I >> wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or >> not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see >> Barry McMullin's aritificial chemistry work). >> >> Actually, its a refreshing change to have some (a-)life topics being >> discussed on this list. >> >> Cheers >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: >>> Hi Terren Suydam >>> >>> You needn't agree with me. I respect that. >>> >>> It wasn't really a thought process, I >>> just couldn't find anything to hold on to, >>> something that works, and I am a pragmatist. >>> Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling". >>> >>> Roger Clough, [email protected] >>> 10/15/2012 >>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>> >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> From: Terren Suydam >>> Receiver: everything-list >>> Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43 >>> Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis >>> >>> >>> Hi Roger, >>> >>> I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject >>> autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that >>> defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it. >>> >>> Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the >>> best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there >>> is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the >>> biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of >>> processes, it does not assume the physical. >>> >>> At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding >>> autonomy. >>> >>> Best, >>> Terren >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >>> > Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>> > >>> > I agree. >>> > >>> > I was wrong about autopoesis. It is >>> > a mind-boggling definition of life, >>> > maybe not even that. >>> > >>> > >>> > Roger Clough, [email protected] >>> > 10/15/2012 >>> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>> > >>> > >>> > ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> > From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>> > Receiver: everything-list >>> > Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19 >>> > Subject: Re: autopoesis >>> > >>> > >>> > Hi Roger, >>> > >>> > >>> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote: >>> > >>> > >>> > Autopoesis is a useful definition for life. >>> > >>> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis >>> > >>> > >>> > Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? >>> > (poiesis), meaning "creation, production") literally means >>> > "self-creation" and expresses a fundamental dialectic among structure, >>> > mechanism and function. The term was introduced in 1972 by Chilean >>> > biologists Humberto >>> > Maturana and Francisco Varela: >>> > >>> > An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a >>> > network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of >>> > components >>> > which: >>> > >>> > (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously >>> > regenerate and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced >>> > them; and >>> > >>> > (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which >>> > they (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its >>> > realization as such a network.[1] >>> > >>> > [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and >>> > cannot be described by using dimensions that define another space. >>> > When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, >>> > however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and >>> > make a >>> > description of this projection.[2] >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack >>> > flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public >>> > discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed". >>> > >>> > The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of >>> > processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to >>> > "transformations" which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the >>> > machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they (the components) >>> > exist by specifying the topological domain of its realization as such a >>> > network.[1]", specifically the "concreteness" of the unity and the >>> > discreetness of its domain is undermined by "transformation". >>> > >>> > The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes >>> > and dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense. >>> > >>> > m >>> > ? >>> > >>> > Roger Clough, [email protected] >>> > 10/14/2012 >>> > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> > "Everything List" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > [email protected]. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> > "Everything List" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > [email protected]. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> > "Everything List" group. >>> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> > [email protected]. >>> > For more options, visit this group at >>> > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >> Principal, High Performance Coders >> Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] >> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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