Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see Barry McMullin's aritificial chemistry work).
Actually, its a refreshing change to have some (a-)life topics being discussed on this list. Cheers On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: > Hi Terren Suydam > > You needn't agree with me. I respect that. > > It wasn't really a thought process, I > just couldn't find anything to hold on to, > something that works, and I am a pragmatist. > Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling". > > Roger Clough, [email protected] > 10/15/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Terren Suydam > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43 > Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis > > > Hi Roger, > > I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject > autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that > defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it. > > Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the > best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there > is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the > biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of > processes, it does not assume the physical. > > At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding > autonomy. > > Best, > Terren > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy > > > > I agree. > > > > I was wrong about autopoesis. It is > > a mind-boggling definition of life, > > maybe not even that. > > > > > > Roger Clough, [email protected] > > 10/15/2012 > > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > > From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy > > Receiver: everything-list > > Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19 > > Subject: Re: autopoesis > > > > > > Hi Roger, > > > > > > On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote: > > > > > > Autopoesis is a useful definition for life. > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis > > > > > > Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? > > (poiesis), meaning "creation, production") literally means "self-creation" > > and expresses a fundamental dialectic among structure, mechanism and > > function. The term was introduced in 1972 by Chilean biologists Humberto > > Maturana and Francisco Varela: > > > > An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a > > network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of > > components > > which: > > > > (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously regenerate > > and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced them; and > > > > (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they > > (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its > > realization as such a network.[1] > > > > [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and > > cannot be described by using dimensions that define another space. > > When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, > > however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and make a > > description of this projection.[2] > > > > > > > > This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack > > flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public > > discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed". > > > > The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of > > processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to > > "transformations" which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the > > machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they (the components) exist > > by specifying the topological domain of its realization as such a > > network.[1]", specifically the "concreteness" of the unity and the > > discreetness of its domain is undermined by "transformation". > > > > The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes and > > dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense. > > > > m > > ? > > > > Roger Clough, [email protected] > > 10/14/2012 > > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > "Everything List" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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