Hello people, right spelling is autopoiesis and to better understanding I recommend reading "Autopoiesis and Cognition" and "The Tree of Knowledge" from Maturana et Varela.
Roberto Szabó Em 17/10/2012, às 09:25, "Roger Clough" <[email protected]> escreveu: > Hi Terren Suydam > > IMHO autopoesis, like all of AI, is a tool for the public, objective world > (Thirdness) > That is fine, but the real nitty-gritty (such as mind or consciousness) > dwells in subjective experiences (quale) (Firstness). So I don't find > autopoesis that useful or profound. > > er Clough, [email protected] > 10/17/2012 > "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen > > > ----- Receiving the following content ----- > From: Terren Suydam > Receiver: everything-list > Time: 2012-10-16, 11:37:05 > Subject: Re: Re: Re: autopoesis > > > Hi Russell, > > I think if autopoeisis has failed to achieve some practical measure, > it is a reflection of how under-developed our collective toolbox is > for working with complexity and holistic systems in general. Imaginary > numbers are a good example of an idea whose practical measure didn't > emerge until well after its conception. > > Thanks for the link to Barry McMullin... interesting stuff. > > Terren > > On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 5:13 PM, Russell Standish wrote: >> Whilst I agree with Terren that autopoesis is an important part of >> what it is to be alive, it is not a very practical thing to measure. I >> wouldn't know if my artificial life simulations were autopoetic or >> not, except where the concept has been explicitly designed in (eg see >> Barry McMullin's aritificial chemistry work). >> >> Actually, its a refreshing change to have some (a-)life topics being >> discussed on this list. >> >> Cheers >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: >>> Hi Terren Suydam >>> >>> You needn't agree with me. I respect that. >>> >>> It wasn't really a thought process, I >>> just couldn't find anything to hold on to, >>> something that works, and I am a pragmatist. >>> Hence my use of the term "mind-boggling". >>> >>> Roger Clough, [email protected] >>> 10/15/2012 >>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>> >>> >>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>> From: Terren Suydam >>> Receiver: everything-list >>> Time: 2012-10-15, 11:23:43 >>> Subject: Re: Re: autopoesis >>> >>> >>> Hi Roger, >>> >>> I'm interested in the thought process that led you to reject >>> autopoeisis. I was intrigued by your recent post about life that >>> defined it as the process of creation, rather than the object of it. >>> >>> Personally I think autopoeisis is an important concept, one of the >>> best yet put forward towards the goal of defining life. I think there >>> is a lot of potential in the idea in terms of applying it beyond the >>> biological domain. As it only deals with relations among a network of >>> processes, it does not assume the physical. >>> >>> At the very least is is indispensable as a framework for understanding >>> autonomy. >>> >>> Best, >>> Terren >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2012 at 10:31 AM, Roger Clough wrote: >>>> Hi Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>> >>>> I agree. >>>> >>>> I was wrong about autopoesis. It is >>>> a mind-boggling definition of life, >>>> maybe not even that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Roger Clough, [email protected] >>>> 10/15/2012 >>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Receiving the following content ----- >>>> From: Platonist Guitar Cowboy >>>> Receiver: everything-list >>>> Time: 2012-10-14, 09:26:19 >>>> Subject: Re: autopoesis >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Roger, >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Oct 14, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Roger Clough wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Autopoesis is a useful definition for life. >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopoiesis >>>> >>>> >>>> Autopoiesis (from Greek a?to- (auto-), meaning "self", and p???s?? >>>> (poiesis), meaning "creation, production") literally means "self-creation" >>>> and expresses a fundamental dialectic among structure, mechanism and >>>> function. The term was introduced in 1972 by Chilean biologists Humberto >>>> Maturana and Francisco Varela: >>>> >>>> An autopoietic machine is a machine organized (defined as a unity) as a >>>> network of processes of production (transformation and destruction) of >>>> components >>>> which: >>>> >>>> (i) through their interactions and transformations continuously regenerate >>>> and realize the network of processes (relations) that produced them; and >>>> >>>> (ii) constitute it (the machine) as a concrete unity in space in which >>>> they (the components) exist by specifying the topological domain of its >>>> realization as such a network.[1] >>>> >>>> [...] the space defined by an autopoietic system is self-contained and >>>> cannot be described by using dimensions that define another space. >>>> When we refer to our interactions with a concrete autopoietic system, >>>> however, we project this system on the space of our manipulations and make >>>> a >>>> description of this projection.[2] >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> This seems to me more a description for machines/hallucinations that lack >>>> flexibility; such as how media, politics, and market are framed in public >>>> discourse. Like Luhmann said "they tend to be operationally closed". >>>> >>>> The statement? above "continuously regenerate and realize the network of >>>> processes (relations) that produced them" stands counter to >>>> "transformations" which would indeed change "(ii) constitute it (the >>>> machine) as a concrete unity in space in which they (the components) exist >>>> by specifying the topological domain of its realization as such a >>>> network.[1]", specifically the "concreteness" of the unity and the >>>> discreetness of its domain is undermined by "transformation". >>>> >>>> The original Greek definition, does ring a bell for creative processes and >>>> dreaming however, but in an "operationally less bounded" sense. >>>> >>>> m >>>> ? >>>> >>>> Roger Clough, [email protected] >>>> 10/14/2012 >>>> "Forever is a long time, especially near the end." -Woody Allen >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit this group at >>>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. >> >> -- >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) >> Principal, High Performance Coders >> Visiting Professor of Mathematics [email protected] >> University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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