JC, at the end of the day, we have spent decades on basic research and it
takes God's own time to get anything really good out of it. Do I need to tell
you of this, via, cancer, fusion, solar power, space? Joey,, wasn't so great on
this either and neither was Barack, nor, Bush 43, nor Wild Bill. Instead, let
Donald gamble. $$$ In for a penny, in for a pound. Let's be good capitalists
my Comrades, and see if we can get more, like ROI? IF old capitalism with its
rewards for the wealthy, can also, using AI, Boost our medical, energy, space,
and materials science capabilities by decades? Its worth a try, and your duly,
noted, pessimism hasn't served us all that well, TBH. What's to lose?
Meanwhile, changing Topic here===========I remember you and physicist Guilio
Prisco did a review of Oxford physicist, Tim Palmer's book Primacy of Doubt
back in 2022. I prompted, Gemini,Co-Pilot, and Grok-3 with the same prompt
line, and I found Grok-3 the best of a bad lot. Gemini and Co-pilot sucked
badly, from my pov. Here is a long response from Grok. Presue at leisure if you
want to? "Exploring Physicist Tim Palmer's View of an Afterlife in his Book
Primacy of DoubtIn The Primacy of Doubt: From Quantum Physics to Climate
Change, How the Science of Uncertainty Can Help Us Understand Our Chaotic
World, physicist Tim Palmer explores a wide range of topics, including
consciousness, free will, and theological questions, but he does not explicitly
focus on the concept of an afterlife in a traditional religious sense. His
discussion of topics related to spirituality and theology, including any
potential implications for an afterlife, is speculative and grounded in his
scientific framework, particularly the geometry of chaos and uncertainty.
Below, I’ll outline how Palmer’s views in the book might relate to the idea of
an afterlife, based on the available information, and clarify the limitations
of his treatment of this topic.Palmer’s Framework: Uncertainty, Chaos, and
ConsciousnessPalmer, a Royal Society Research Professor at the University of
Oxford, is known for his work on ensemble weather forecasting and the
application of chaos theory to various domains, from climate to quantum
physics. In The Primacy of Doubt, he argues that embracing uncertainty—through
concepts like the geometry of chaos (fractal structures) and ensemble
prediction—offers insights into complex systems, including the human brain,
consciousness, and even philosophical questions about free will and
theology.The book’s third section, “The Science of Uncertainty to Understand
Our Chaotic World,” includes a chapter (Chapter 14: “Free Will, Consciousness
and Theology”) where Palmer ventures into speculative territory, addressing big
questions about human existence. He connects the low-energy efficiency of the
brain, chaos theory, and quantum mechanics to consciousness and free will,
suggesting that the brain’s ability to operate creatively in uncertain
conditions might reflect deeper principles of the universe. This sets the stage
for his brief exploration of theological ideas, which could indirectly touch on
concepts like the afterlife.Palmer’s View on Theological Questions and the
AfterlifePalmer’s approach to theology is not rooted in traditional religious
doctrine but rather in a physicist’s attempt to interpret profound mysteries
through the lens of science. He acknowledges the limitations of his expertise,
noting that his speculations in philosophy and theology are outside his primary
domain of natural sciences. Specifically, in Chapter 14, he explores whether
the geometry of chaos and his proposed “invariant set theory” (a novel
interpretation of quantum mechanics involving counterfactual indefiniteness)
could provide insights into questions about God, consciousness, and human
purpose.Regarding the afterlife, Palmer does not explicitly endorse or deny its
existence. Instead, his discussion of theology appears to focus on whether
scientific principles, like the fractal geometry of chaos or quantum
uncertainty, might offer a framework for understanding spiritual or
metaphysical phenomena. For example:
- He suggests that the universe’s chaotic structures could imply a deeper
order or purpose, which some might interpret as compatible with spiritual
ideas, including the possibility of consciousness persisting in some form.
However, this is highly speculative and not a direct claim about an afterlife.
- His invariant set theory, which proposes a deterministic yet unpredictable
framework for quantum mechanics, might allow for philosophical interpretations
of consciousness or free will that could intersect with theological ideas about
the soul or persistence of identity. However, reviewers note that this section
feels “hand-wavy” and lacks rigorous mathematical grounding, suggesting it’s
more exploratory than conclusive.
Palmer’s Jesuit reader (mentioned in a review) appreciated the philosophical
background of ensemble forecasting but did not comment on afterlife-specific
insights, indicating that the book’s theological discussion is broad and not
focused on afterlife details. Similarly, reviews highlight that Palmer’s
treatment of theology is ambitious but limited by his physicist’s perspective,
where “everything looks like particle interactions and mathematical
expressions.”Key Points on Palmer’s Afterlife View
- No Direct Discussion of an Afterlife: Palmer’s book does not provide a
clear stance on the afterlife as understood in religious contexts (e.g.,
heaven, reincarnation, or spiritual continuation). His focus is on
consciousness, free will, and theological possibilities through a scientific
lens.
- Speculative Theology: In Chapter 14, he speculates on how chaos theory and
quantum mechanics might relate to theological questions, but these are abstract
and tied to his invariant set theory rather than concrete claims about life
after death.
- Consciousness and Chaos: Palmer’s ideas about the brain’s low-energy
creativity and chaotic dynamics could imply that consciousness is a fundamental
aspect of the universe, potentially leaving room for metaphysical
interpretations of its persistence, but he does not develop this into an
afterlife theory.
- Limitations of Expertise: Palmer admits to crossing into speculative
territory where he lacks expertise, and reviewers note that his theological
arguments are less convincing than his discussions of chaos or climate.
Critical PerspectiveWhile Palmer’s work is praised for its ambition and
interdisciplinary scope—called “quite possibly the best popular science book”
by some—his venture into theology and metaphysical questions is seen as less
robust. Critics argue that his physicist’s worldview limits his ability to
engage deeply with philosophical or theological traditions, which might include
established perspectives on the afterlife. For instance, a reviewer with a PhD
in theoretical physics found his invariant set theory intriguing but
unconvincing, suggesting that Palmer’s theological speculations are more
provocative than definitive.From a skeptical standpoint, Palmer’s approach
risks overextending scientific tools (chaos theory, quantum mechanics) into
domains where they may not apply, such as the afterlife, which is inherently
untestable by current scientific methods. Conversely, his openness to exploring
these questions aligns with his broader theme of embracing doubt, reflecting a
willingness to question established boundaries between science and
spirituality.ConclusionTim Palmer’s The Primacy of Doubt does not offer a
specific view on the afterlife. Instead, it includes speculative discussions
about consciousness, free will, and theology, using chaos theory and quantum
mechanics as lenses. While these ideas might inspire readers to consider
whether consciousness could persist in some form, Palmer does not make explicit
claims about an afterlife. His approach is that of a physicist exploring big
questions with scientific tools, acknowledging his limitations in philosophy
and theology. For a deeper understanding, readers might focus on Chapter 14,
but should approach it as a thought-provoking rather than conclusive treatment
of spiritual topics.If you’d like, I can search for additional reviews or
discussions of The Primacy of Doubt to see if other readers or critics have
interpreted Palmer’s theological views as relating to the afterlife, or I can
analyze specific passages if you have access to the book. Let me know how you’d
like to
proceed!"===========================================================NOTE:
Palmer Does have direct references to an Afterlife. I can see this on my phone
now,and Prisco notes this in his latest book. Palmer posits it using his
Invariant Set Theory where we return, largely as copies of ourselves (precise)
re-experiencing as adults, this world, but during a later time in the Universe.
This seems to describe more closely a technological resurrection for us? "For
example, in the invariant set model there is an afterlife. We and our loved
onesbe coming back in future epochs of the universe, on trajectories in state
space, none precisely the same as the present one.We have the opportunity not
to make the same mistakes again. Equally, we will likely mess up some of the
successes we have made of our lives this time round. Perhaps it will be better
the next time round, perhaps it will be worse. Who knows? That makes it all the
more exciting and somdthing to look forward to (arguablymuch more exciting than
a future of perfect bliss and happiness).For each epoch there will be an
afterlife;there is no ending to the number of trajectories on the cosmological
invariant set. Indeed, as someone who rejected the Catholic religion of his
childhood, I tend in my more metaphysical moments to think of cosmological
invaraint set as a logical alternative to the god of my early years...I am not
sure I agree with Palmer on all this. Tho' it seems to coincide with a
technological resurrection us nerds dream of. His 'god' seems interesting in
any case. The moral? Lets be careful of how AI engines have been ideologically
programmed?
Ciao!15 web pagesAsk Grok to search deeper
On Tuesday, May 6, 2025 at 02:32:47 PM EDT, John Clark
<[email protected]> wrote:
On Sun, May 4, 2025 at 8:18 AM '[email protected]' via Everything List
<[email protected]> wrote:
> Because he knew it woulds piss you and yours off JC. You know the old saying,
>Fuck em if they can't take a joke
Before the election Trump said he would inflict astronomically high tariffs on
the American people which, as any economist would tell you, would devastate the
Country's GDP; people like you said that was just Trump being Trump, he was
just joking and wouldn't really do it. But now look at us! I predicted 2020
would be the last presidential election this country ever has, but Trump's
stupidity has exceeded even my very low expectations, so now I think we will be
saved from dictatorship if Trump sticks to his guns and doesn't change his
monumentally idiotic trade policy. Even the MAGA faithful will not forgive a
self generated Trump slump.
> I never miss an opportunity to promote technology as useful to us primate
Then tell me what you think of Trump's war, not on cancer but his war on
cancer research? That primate has already canceled billions of dollars of
research into cancer because some of the scientists involved may have political
views that differ from Trump's, even though cancer doesn't care if you're a
republican or a democrat. And you'd think after our experience with Covid we'd
be better prepared for the next pandemic, but instead Trump is cutting the
budget for the Center For Disease Control, and Trump picked Robert Kennedy
Junior, perhaps the only man in America even stupider than Trump, to be the
head of the National Institute of Health. Does that sound like promoting
useful technology to you?
> the Democrats did this with the open border policiy. 11.5 million illegals in
What is it with you? Has an illegal immigrant ever done anything bad to you
personally? I don't get why you believe this issue is more important than any
other. The crime rate of illegal immigrants is actually lower than that of
native born Americans! And even if it wasn't I'd still say it was an issue of
trivial importance. And if you kicked out all the illegal immigrants then the
agricultural sector of the US economy would collapse because they're doing work
that American citizens don't want to do. Do you hate them because they're
interfering with your lifelong ambition to become a professional tomato picker?
John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
1sz
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