Hi Robert, I am afraid that some of your assumptions are wrong, so the wrong conclusion follows.
You claim that the installation is expensive because of the large size of the installation, but you forget that outdoor NEMA 5-20 outlets are standard and cheap, so while the (underground) wiring to the outlets can be costly, as long as it is done in standard conduit and outlets are aggregated in a smart way to a limited number of conduits, the total installation is neither complicated nor very expensive, especially when done during construction of the parking. Look at how public parking has street lights put in, distributed throughout the lot? Adding vehicle charging will certainly increases the amount of wiring but if done in a smart way, not much more digging or conduit required. Just fatter cables to supply more power and more branching out at the end. You claim that there is a maintenance issue because of a large number of EVSE, I thought the idea was that there are no EVSE needed, just NEMA outlets. Those do not fail very often and don't need maintenance. Puddles a problem? How about GFCI outlets that are already required in new buildings? And how do you think that the northern states that have an outlet in every parking spot for block heaters have been managing this "danger"? For many years I plugged into such an outlet, whether it was raining or the sun was shining and I never wondered if it would be a problem. I knew the GFCI would detect any problem. System security: What did you have in mind? Someone hacking the 110V outlet? If stealing power is an issue then the building manager can put the parking lot outlets on a timer to turn off after hours. You say that the system will have a low utilization rate because the EV needs to be parked (charging) for a long time. This indicates a high utilization rate. The cost of the system is not high if you compare to the cost to the company of the employee salaries. Playing musical chairs with EVs in the parking lot, causing each employee to lose up to half hour of work time might cost the company in the order of $100 per occurrence, so $20,000 per employee per year. The cost of installing a hundred NEMA outlets for 200 employees pales in comparison and the convenience of not needing to search for a charger, but simply drop the car in a slot and plug in for the day are a much better proposition than the hassle of waiting or running out to move the car in time or even a valet service to get all participating EVs charged. There probably are scenarios possible where a limited number of high priced EVSE make sense and I fully support to have a few high power EVSE available for the "Oh crap" moments where you need to leave ASAP but have not enough range, so you gladly pay a couple bucks to fill up in minutes instead of hours. But the regular commute traffic can perfectly be done with 110 outlets, as I know from experience. Hope this clarifies the discussion. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless office +1 408 383 7626 Skype: cor_van_de_water XoIP +31 87 784 1130 private: cvandewater.info http://www.proxim.com This email message (including any attachments) contains confidential and proprietary information of Proxim Wireless Corporation. If you received this message in error, please delete it and notify the sender. Any unauthorized use, disclosure, distribution, or copying of any part of this message is prohibited. -----Original Message----- From: EV [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2016 7:15 PM To: Lee Hart; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV'sIn Production Lee, I was making the following points in my e-mail concerning the installation of a large number of EVSEs in a parking area: (1) The installation will be very expensive because of the size of the required electrical distribution system (2) Maintenance will be expensive because of the large number of EVSEs and equipment failure rates (3) The system will have a low utilization rate because vehicle will be parked for an extended periods (4) System security is low because of scammers and no local oversight (5) Not a safe system because of a possible pool of water or vandalism. (6) The cost of an EVSE is small relative to the cost of the system; therefore, a lower cost intelligent outlet will have a minor impact on the total system cost. Due to the above points, the installation of a large number of EVSEs in a parking area (1) is not an efficient use of equipment, (2) has low system security, (3) unsafe system and (4) is not a good use of capital. My suggestion to solve the problem was for everyone to charge at home with a NEMA type outlet or use an induction type system in a parking area. An induction type system reduces the installation cost because of a reduction in the size of the electrical distribution system. With an induction coupled system, the main source can sense the presence of a vehicle or if a vehicle requires power; therefore, the main source can be sized to the utilization rate. The main source can alternate between vehicles. This cannot be done with an EVSE system. The NEC requires that the service required for each EVSE be sized at full load. See Perl Hartman e-mail describing a 100 plug L2 system. It required 2000A at 120VAC. With a 20% utilization rate, the induction system would only require 400A at 120VAC. Maintenance cost would be lower because the system consist of a main power source, distribution panel, and numerous coils of wire. The system is safer because it is not effected by water and is secure from vandalism. Other technical points: An X10 system (PowerLine Transmission) will not work in an industrial or commercial environment because of signal attenuation, electrical noise, transmission across transformers, and low data transmission rate. RF is not reliable in a structure with high levels of electrical noise or a lot of rebar (steel) and concrete. Cell phones and radios do not work reliably in underground or high rise parking garages or some houses. In my house, I cannot use a wireless modem. My house has to much rebar, concrete, and earth. I looked at the nameplate on the Magne Charger that I have in my workshop. It showed: Charge Port CP7100, 475VAC Peak, 22A AC Max, 400 Hz, 6.5 KW Max Output Power, Manf Date July 1996. Also, it showed the manufacturer as Delso Electronics Power Control Systems. This is the unit that is installed in the car. I could not find the nameplate data on the pedestal unit with the paddle. If you have any electrical schematics or other info on these units, I would be interested. Thanks Bob Hensley. ________________________________ From: EV <[email protected]> on behalf of Lee Hart via EV <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 9:59 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] Cheap L2 charging in parking places: Bolt EV's In Production ROBERT via EV wrote: > An EVSE requires an AC cable and data cable. An intelligent outlet > would still require the same two cables. In addition, a specialty > intelligent outlet would cost $100 - $200 (guesstimate). Not really. An intelligent outlet could do the same, and use RF, or carrier current signalling to communicate with the EV. For example, the GM EV1 Magnechargers used RF signals for authentication. Remember, they had *no* wires between the vehicle and EVSE. The common X10 system is used to remotely control all sorts of AC loads. Special outlets have a circuit that can send and receive data over the existing AC power line wiring, and can switch the AC on or off. These outlets are mass-produced and sell for only $20 or so each. > However, the high cost is the installation cost and maintenance cost. People forget that large areas of the nation have already had a charging infrastructure for a very long time. It's been there to plug in ICE block heaters, Christmas lights, run electric lawnmowers, etc. Outdoor AC outlets have been required by the NEC (National Electric Code for decades. In the states where I've lived (Michigan, New York, and Minnesota, just about every home, apartment, and business has these standard 120vac 15a convenience outlets already installed and freely available for use. > High installation and maintenance cost are a problem with developing > an EV charging infrastructure. The answer is to charge at home with a > NEMA outlet or install induction charging stations. That's true, if they insist on something new, proprietary, and incompatible with existing systems. Unfortunately, these become the *requirements* when someone wants to create a new monopoly to get rich. > However, for induction charging to work efficiently, you need higher > frequency chargers. Remember the EV1 induction charging paddle. The > system operated at 400 HZ. The EV1 Magnecharger worked at a much high frequency (around 50 KHz). The higher frequency actually *hurt* efficiency, but was necessary to make the paddle small and light. We've had 60 Hz induction charging setups for 50%+ years. For example, Inductran has made them for charging in-plant EVs. Half of a conventional 60 Hz transformer is in the floor, and the other half in the vehicle. Drive over it, and turn it on. The two halves of the transformer magnetically link, to charge safely and efficiently. We don't really need expensive high-tech solutions for charging. It's fundamentally no different than plugging in any other appliance, and people have been doing that for 100 years. -- Buy thneeds! It's what everyone needs! Get em' now 'fore they're gone! Which they'll be, before long! -- "The Lorax" by Dr. Seuss -- (The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. 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