I would mostly agree with that. But note that there are impacts from extracting, manufacturing, disposingvand using energy and storage devices for non-ICE vehicles. I don't know the comparison, or even if anyone has done a credible analysis, but there are impacts from the manufacturing and recycling of batteries (ask the unhealthy residents around the Exide plant in Los Angeles), fuel cells, electrolyzers, power plants (burning nat gas, fuel oil), solar cells, etc.. Fracking of tar sands is relatively new, but the traditional way was pretty dirty. - Mark
Sent from AltaMail From: "Peri Hartman" <[email protected]> To: [email protected], dovepa <[email protected]>, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]> CC: "Peri Hartman via EV" <[email protected]> Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper Date: 5/15/16, 1:30 PM Well, there is a difference between CO2 and other forms of air pollution. I don't think cities are suffering from excess CO2, though more fresh air with higher oxygen might be desirable. But, in my opinion, there are plenty of other reasons to move towards zero ICE vehicles. Global warming, reduced urban livability from noise, the direct environmental hazards of extracting carbon based fuels (think fracking), the fact that even the best ICE vehicles do emit non CO2 pollutants especially as they age. Peri ------ Original Message ------ From: "Mark Abramowitz via EV" <[email protected]> To: "dovepa" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]> Cc: "Peri Hartman via EV" <[email protected]> Sent: 14-May-16 12:34:09 PM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper > The need for zero emission vehicles has been around for significantly >longer than efforts to reduce CO2 emissions. >For many parts of the country (and world), local levels of air >pollution have tremendous impacts on human health and the environment. >If you believe that we can solve the CO2 problem by eliminating coal, >and you think that it can be done in a reasonable amount of time, there >still remains a urgent need for zero and near-zero emitting vehicles. > >- Mark >Sent from AltaMail > > > From: dovepa via EV <[email protected]> To: Peri Hartman via EV ><[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey >defending her LiO2 (fluffy carbon) battery paper Date: 5/13/16, 6:49 PM > > > >I don't see a need to eliminate the internal combustion engine. Most of >the CO2 comes from burning coal. According to the EPA only 14% comes >from transportation. All forms of transportation together road, rail, >air and marine. > >Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone >-------- Original message --------From: Peri Hartman via EV ><[email protected]> Date: 5/13/16 4:13 PM (GMT-06:00) To: Mike Beem ><[email protected]>, EVDL Administrator <[email protected]>, Electric >Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: >Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy > carbon) battery paper >The range problem definitely does exist. How are you going to get rid >of ICE vehicles for long range travel if you can only go 100 miles or >so >per charge? Even 200 miles. > >This has nothing to do with the vehicle you might use for everyday >commuting and errands. Yes, 100 miles is almost always plenty for >that. > And, yes, you can rent something if you want to go long range. > >But we're talking about getting ICE vehicles off the road. That long >range vehicle needs to go 300-400 miles on a charge to be practical. >Some have to be built and there needs to be high wattage charging >stations along the interstates and major highways. And, another >factor, >if only a small percentage are built, economy of scale won't work and >they will be quite expensive. > >Peri > >------ Original Message ------ >From: "Mike Beem via EV" <[email protected]> >To: "EVDL Administrator" <[email protected]>; "Electric Vehicle >Discussion >List" <[email protected]> >Sent: 13-May-16 2:06:31 PM >Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Prof. Clare Grey defending her LiO2 (fluffy >carbon) battery paper > >>> They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. >> >>>Most of us on the EVDL have been saying this for years -- that 100 >>>miles of >>range is plenty for almost anyone. >> >>Well stated, both of you! I definitely am ready for that 100 mile >>range, >>having over the years never had more than my current 40 mile range >>pack. >>However, it still does carry me for more than 95% of the miles I drive >>most >>months. I do have a 3/4 ton diesel pick up truck for pulling my dump >>trailer, and hauling any any loads too heavy, large or messy for the >>EV >>Escort, but with its roof rack I have carried ladders, lumber etc. for >>much >>of what I do; and the truck generally gets driven less than 500 mile >>per >>year, so its contribution to ICE pollution is as minimal as I can make >>it. >>Having now sold off or given away all of my remaining EV projects, I >>know >>that I am probably driving my last home made EV, but it still has 5 >>1/2 >>years to go to finish my experiment=can I drive a conversion EV on one >>lithium pack with a total investment of $10000 for 10 years? (not >>including >>tires or brakes). >>Time will tell, but so far, I have seen no degradation in range or >>power. >>Michael B >> >>On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:45 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV < >>[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 13 May 2016 at 6:31, dovepa via EV wrote: >>> >>> > They are trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. >>> >>> Most of us on the EVDL have been saying this for years -- that 100 >>>miles of >>> range is plenty for almost anyone. >>> >>> It's true, but outside of EV hobbyists, hardly anyone believes it. >>>The >>> public perception is that they need range close to what they get on >>>a >>> tankful of gasoline now. >>> >>> We know that "range anxiety" is a myth. But "journalists" keep >>>hammering >>> at >>> it, and the public buys it. So to them, it's real. >>> >>> We can educate these folks until we drop from exhaustion and it >>>won't >>> change >>> more than a couple of their minds. We can even have them track >>>their >>> weekly mileage. It makes no difference. >>> >>> Vehicle buyers demand long range, just in case they ever need it. >>>It's the >>> same attitude that makes people buy huge pickup trucks and drive >>>their >>> clunky, awkward 18-mpg beasts year in and year out, even if they >>>only >>>haul >>> something big once a year (or less). >>> >>> Perception is reality. It doesn't pay to fight it. What does pay >>>is >>> asking >>> people who actually buy vehicles what they need, listening to them, >>>and >>> then >>> building and offering for sale an EV that meets those perceived >>> requirements >>> and needs, whether they're real needs or not. >>> >>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA >>> EVDL Administrator >>> >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not >>> reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my >>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . >>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>> http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>> Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ >>> Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA ( >>> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >>> >>> >>-------------- next part -------------- >>An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >>URL: >><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160513/3175229b/attachment.htm> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >>http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >>Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ >>Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160513/51798bde/attachment.htm> > >_______________________________________________ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > >-------------- next part -------------- >An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >URL: ><http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20160514/590645e4/attachment.htm> > >_______________________________________________ >UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub >http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org >Read EVAngel's EV News at http://evdl.org/evln/ >Please discuss EV drag racing at NEDRA >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... 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