I agree Jim. I love to do demonstrations. I am also happy to see discussions between reviewers and authors, possibly through a third person are happening. If we had that on the paper that was rejected, I suspect the reviewer would have dropped his objection to our paper, which ended up published in another venue before the EMC Symposium.
In my case I just can't justify writing a paper before it is accepted because of the significant personal cost. There are lots of other great symposium that do not require it. By the way, EMC is only part of what I do as my experience spans many different areas of science and engineering. Manufacturing engineering, field problems, bearing lubrication, spacecraft, electric aircraft, and thermodynamics are a few others of the many areas I get involved with. Lately I have been advising people on medical issues and have helped many people now, although I don't charge for helping fellow human beings. I am leaving a trail of very happy people. Can't publish on that though as I consider medical science to be an oxymoron, proved to me every day because of my extensive literature research and experimentation. I really like DesignCon for their process. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: [email protected] Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: Jim Bacher, WB8VSU <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, December 9, 2024 9:46:21 AM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] experiments as a source of knowledge Doug, the IEEE does require a double blind review for a IEEE sponsored symposium to accept a paper. One of the main reasons is it keeps personal opinions about the author, out of the reviewers opinion of the paper. Its up to the each Societies conference committee's technical program committee on how to deal with the blind paper review. You can always contact the chair of the committee and complain that a reviewer was wrong. The reviewers are volunteers, so there is always potential issues. The old system that PSES used for the review process didn't allow discussions between author and reviewer to occure. I believe the the new system does. In the case of PSES we need more volunteers to help review papers. I suspect the same is true for other societies. There are a lot of people on this list capable of being reviewers, but have not volunteered to do so. There are a number of authors who only attend symposiums on the day of their presentation to minimize costs. One of the reasons to attend such events for a consultant like your self, is to get exposure to potential customers and other contacts. In fact some of the guidance I got when I started calling myself a consultant was I need to go to numerous symposiums and do presentations to get recognition as a consultant. As you know you can just do a presentation without doing a paper. The bulk of my volunteer efforts with the IEEE has been on personal time and personal expense including the presentations I have done. Jim Bacher, WB8VSU [email protected] JBRC Consulting LLC Product EMC & Regulatory Consultant https://www.trc.guru/<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__trc.guru_&d=DwMFaQ&c=euGZstcaTDllvimEN8b7jXrwqOf-v5A_CdpgnVfiiMM&r=c9NR2mGfldry-2pM9Bbuww&m=KWoQVyp90oZvImGhjeAhsZ88aSB313anDl2I5NppQbpuAaii3vnTUCORnv5QVHu7&s=muRd6ygv0wl4tKDQAFosV6wrICq9cH0mKoQ2VO24iOY&e=> email:[email protected] IEEE Life Senior Member On December 8, 2024 10:53:36 PM "doug emcesd.com" <[email protected]> wrote: As an independent engineer, I have to stop work, and income, to write a paper. An engineer’s time at many companies these days cost $2,000+ per worked day, so a week taken to develop data and write a paper costs the company about $20,000. To take a week off to go to the symposium and present the paper is another $20,000 plus travel expenses. When I was a young engineer at AT&T Bell Telephone Labs, all engineers were required to take a one semester course in Engineering Economics run by the company. That course was one of the most important courses I have ever taken. Many engineers and low level managers have no idea what their real costs are. If engineers had to reimburse their company for costs associated with them, each engineer would have to return all of the salary and more to the company to "work" there. Participation in IEEE activities is very expensive to companies. My personal overhead is lower than for a company engineer, but still significant. In a normal year, I have need to make $80,000 to cover expenses! Only worked time pays which is only a fraction of the time I actually spend in my office and lab. The only way I can justify doing my own research is that it results in techniques that solve engineering problems much faster than what is available in the literature, for which my clients have expressed gratitude. Even one day's delay in a new product introduction for any reason can cost a company $100,000 or more for each day! I think if managers understood their costs, the IEEE and other similar organizations would have a harder time finding people to participate. This in fact may be happening now as many companies have stopped all expenditures not directly related to the job at hand. With rising stock prices as we get into next year this trend hopefully will reverse. I LOVE engineering and apply it to everything I do. For instance, my study of thermodynamics and medicine allowed me, at 77 years old last summer, to run many, many miles at 120°F/49°C in the desert without feeling stressed or having an elevated heart rate over what normal running would be. If you are a runner, come to the Mojave Desert where I live next summer and I will happily show you how to do it. One of these days I am going to hold a course on how be an athlete in one's late 70s. My athletic app says I am in the top 1% of all athletes in the world for mileage run. I would love to share what I have learned, a relatively straightforward application of engineering principles. Doug Smith Sent from my iPhone IPhone: 408-858-4528 Office: 702-570-6108 Email: [email protected] Website: http://dsmith.org ________________________________ From: Brent DeWitt <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, December 8, 2024 7:13:59 PM To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [PSES] experiments as a source of knowledge Well said Richard. It's not clear why the submittal of a paper to a journal requires $10k investment. Many of the EMC journal papers come from university student groups, often led by a mentor. I doubt they invested that much money. 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Take caution when interacting with this message. NkdkJdXPPEBannerEnd Well said Richard. It's not clear why the submittal of a paper to a journal requires $10k investment. Many of the EMC journal papers come from university student groups, often led by a mentor. I doubt they invested that much money. Respectfully, Brent DeWitt, AB1LF IEEE EMC Society Senior Life Member On 12/8/2024 7:15 PM, Richard Nute wrote: Hi Doug: I’ve been doing PowerPoint presentations and formal papers for the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society since it was founded. My employers allowed me to prepare on company time and paid my travel and attendance expenses. The IEEE/PSES presentation/paper process has not charged me or my former employer for the presentations/papers. I did get a “best paper” award in 2013. For this society, there is no IEEE membership pre-requisite for presentation/paper, although there is a 20% higher attendance fee. Almost daily, it seems, I get invitations to present papers at some other IEEE conference and related conferences. None have expenses other than the charges for attending the conference, which are modest. As these are out of my field, I ignore them. In the past, I did some original research (published) while employed. Now that I’m retired, my “research” is searching and reading published papers related to a particular subject. I still do presentations and papers. I disagree with your assertion “the IEEE process makes it excessively expensive for an independent contributor to write a paper compared to DesignCon.” Attendance fees for DesignCon 2025 and IEEE PSES ISPCE 2025 are nearly equal. Richard Nute IEEE Life Fellow Bend, Oregon, USA ________________________________ This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. 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