Wayne, it would seem to be as simple as this:  a stand of junipers has
greater biomass and a deeper root system than a flora composed of grasses,
forbs and scattered shrubs.  As a result the stand of juniper transpires
more water from more levels than its counterpart biota. However, the
observed effect of juniper removal on springs and streams is primarily
anecdotal, as you said.

Oregon's Great Basin ranges were heavily overgrazed starting way back in the
late 19th century.  The increase in juniper cover has occurred since then,
primarily as a result of reduced fire carrying forage species.

You can find out much more than you probably want to know about this in the
2005 Oregon State University Technical Bulletin 152, Biology, Ecology, and
Management of Western Juniper.

http://www.sagebrushsea.org/pdf/Miller_et_al_Juniper_Tech_Bulletin.pdf

This publication will answer your questions about pre-fire-exclusion stand
characteristics, management practices, and causes for increased juniper
recruitment. It will informs us that cow pies have little or no effect –
juniper seeds spread by birds, not cattle.

 

 

Warren W. Aney

Tigard, Oregon

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Wayne Tyson [mailto:[email protected]] 
Sent: Monday, 12 September, 2011 19:28
To: Warren W. Aney; [email protected]
Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species

 

Warren and Ecolog:

 

Well, Warren, I guess I'll have to take your word for it. You've got more 

experience with that area than I do, but I would still like to know more 

about the theoretical foundations and evidence to justify some of those 

conclusions. And, I'm concerned about the actual costs and benefits to 

wildlife as well as cows. To me, that area shouldn't have a cow on it, but 

certainly not a subsidized cow on a subsidized "range." And I come from a 

cow background, so I'm not prejudiced; I had a Hereford bull for a 4-H 

project, so I'm not insensitive to "ranchers" either. But I have seen plenty


of cow-burnt "range" in the Intermountain West.

 

I've heard the same "water-hog" story about pinyon pines and other "brush" 

all over the western US. I've heard the restored spring and streamflow 

stories too, but haven't seen evidence beyond anecdotal stuff. However, you 

know me, I think that anecdote is the singular of data. But correlation, 

again, is not necessarily causation. I'm still skeptical, but holding any 

"final" judgment in reserve.

 

I do agree that "nothing" grows under junipers, but out beyond the drip line


it's a different story, at least where I've observed it elsewhere (I wasn't 

that carefully-observant at Steen's). I don't doubt the stemflow part 

either, but it's not uncommon for plants to shade out other plants; this 

doesn't mean that said "parched mini-desert" is a serious problem in the 

context of the ecosystem--or does it? But the channeling down into the 

ground works to the benefit of the juniper--ain't that the way it's supposed


to work? What is the penetration profile like in the absence of the juniper?


What's the ratio of annual unit biomass production to water consumption for 

junipers? For the "replacement" vegetation? Has it been demonstrated that 

groundwater recharge is more effectively intercepted by junipers than, say, 

grasses. The former have deeper, ropier root systems than grasses that mine 

the capillary fringe and other water on its way down, but enough to shut off


springs and stop streamflow? It seems to me that any given site has a given 

effective carrying capacity that is going to limit vegetation growth 

accordingly, no matter what the (natural) vegetation is. The water may have 

a better chance of percolating past the junipers than the grass, no? The 

junipers have a limited capacity (and a limited need) for water; the grasses


will increase transpiration surfaces much faster in response to water.

 

What were pre-fire-exclusion stand characteristics? Are management practices


aiming for that, or for some other target? How much increased juniper 

recruitment occurred as a result of fire exclusion rather than some other 

cause, such as livestock-induced soil disturbance? Do cow pies have any 

effect, etc?

 

Now I guess we have to add "intrusive" to our list of terms? But really, 

Warren--crying cowboys? Is that fair?

 

WT

 

 

----- Original Message ----- 

From: "Warren W. Aney" <[email protected]>

To: "'Wayne Tyson'" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]>

Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 3:44 PM

Subject: RE: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species

 

 

Yes, Wayne, the BLM is cutting down "big junipers" as you saw -- 100 years

of fire protection means we now have some pretty good-sized junipers in the

areas that once burnt over.  However, the BLM is not cutting down the really

big "grandfather" junipers growing on rims and rocky ridges where wildfires

did not reach or burn hot enough to kill these old junipers.

Regarding water and vegetation effects, junipers are water hogs and

vegetation excluders.  The ground under a big juniper tends to be void of

grasses, forbs and shrubs.  That's because the juniper not only mines the

deep water, its canopy also collects rainwater and channels it down the

trunk into the ground, creating a parched mini-desert where other species

are inhibited from growing.

My son tells an anecdote from when he was a Forest Service district ranger

on the east (Great Basin) side of the Fremont-Winema National Forest:  He

took a senior rancher to see an area adjacent to his ranch property where

they had been removing intrusive juniper from a draw leading into the

Chewaucan River.  When the rancher saw rejuvenated springs he teared up,

saying "I remember seeing those springs go away many years ago and I thought

I'd never see them flowing again."

 

Warren W. Aney

Tigard, Oregon

 

 

-----Original Message-----

From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news

[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Wayne Tyson

Sent: Monday, 12 September, 2011 13:08

To: [email protected]

Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species

 

All:

 

The BLM has a "demonstration" project on Steen's mountain, complete with

plasticized photos and text explaining that fire suppression was the culprit

in the juniper "invasion," but my bias tends to line up more with Hohn's.

However, I suspect trampling and hoof-dragging (soil disturbances) are more

likely to be primary factor, borne more of gut feelings than evidence. The

BLM PR discusses the comparative effects of various treatments, but the bias

seems to be pretty much as Hohn describes.

 

Back in 1980, I used the field-trial approach to "test" various treatments

for grassland restoration. One of the results showed that evaporative losses

went up, apparently drastically, as the clayey soil developed large

desiccation cracks quickly, while the uncleared plots did not crack until

much later in the dry season. If the cracks are deep enough and swelling

doesn't close them too fast, there might be an advantage to the cracks as a

means of depositing free water (especially in low-volume precipitation

events) at depth rather than depending upon percolation alone. This sort of

thing cries out for more and better research than we had the budget to do.

Based on what I have read and heard over the years, I suspect that

plant-soil-water relations, especially in wildland soils, is not

well-understood by most researchers. The more certain a researcher is

concerning such conclusions, the more I tend to consider them suspect.

 

I think that a lot of range managers are shooting themselves in the foot by

cutting down big junipers (as has been done at Steen's Mountain). First,

interception of solar radiation tends to reduce evaporative loss. Second,

junipers and other woody plants of semi-arid and arid regions tend to be

fairly efficient in terms of "water use." Third, grasses tend to mine water

from shallow depths and transpire more (higher ET?) from the first, say,

meter or less of soil, thus intercepting percolating water, especially in

heavier soils, possibly or probably reducing rather than enhancing

groundwater recharge. Fourth, I suspect that the marginal "improvement" in

forage production is a snare and a delusion; nobody seems to check the

alternative of a mixed stand, so there is no comparative basis for any such

conclusions apart from intuitive inference. Fifth, heterogeneous sites are

more resilient than more homogeneous ones; the big, old junipers (ironically

far older than the acknowledged beginning of fire suppression) shade areas

where grasses tend to remain active longer as the season advances, providing

more palatable forage as well as providing for wider reproduction potential

via zones of seed production when the more open areas die or go dormant,

resulting in diminished seed production or "crop" failure (provided the

stock has been taken off soon enough to keep the seeds from being eaten

before maturity). Sixth, the old junipers provide stock shade and wildlife

cover. There may be more, but that's what comes to mind at the moment.

 

If managers want to control the juniper invasion, why not kill the trees

that truly represent the invasion, i.e., the younger seedlings, saplings,

and smaller trees rather than the ones they must acknowledge existed prior

to the "invasion?"

 

As usual, I look forward to alternative evaluations of the evidence,

including speculation with a sound theoretical foundation.

 

WT

 

PS: I'd like to see some conclusive evidence that, in the long-term,

exclusion of livestock from cheatgrass areas would not result in reduced

cheatgrass populations. The restoration process could be speeded up by

planting colonies of indigenous grasses and perhaps other species (as

propagule-generators and for site heterogeneity) consistent with comparable

sites without heavy cheatgrass populations.

  ----- Original Message ----- 

  From: Charlie Hohn

  To: Wayne Tyson

  Cc: [email protected]

  Sent: Monday, September 12, 2011 10:06 AM

  Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species

 

 

  Native invasives are an important thing to acknowledge, because again the

issue is not where plants are native to, but if they are invasive.  Native

invasives are necessarily behaving in this way due to changes in their

environment (I think in the juniper's case it has to do with grazing,

right?)... and in these cases - as well as with many non-native invasives,

it makes sense to deal with the problem by addressing the changes in the

environment (adopt better grazing practices, fire management practices, or

whatever the case may be).  However, I do think there are some invasive

organisms that would be a problem even WITHOUT all these other human

disturbances (for instance, cheatgrass)... that invade undisturbed areas and

'crash' ecosystems without being caused by environmental changes.  I think

that is the main reason to differentiate native invasives from introduced

ones.

 

 

  On Mon, Sep 12, 2011 at 9:41 AM, Wayne Tyson <[email protected]> wrote:

 

    Warren (and others), how might the juniper "invasion" on Steen's

Mountain (or other "invasions" of indigenous species, particularly dominant,

long-lived indicators) fit into this discussion?

 

    WT

 

 

    ----- Original Message ----- From: "Warren W. Aney" <[email protected]>

 

    To: <[email protected]>

 

    Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 9:08 PM

 

    Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species

 

 

 

    I was speaking from a contemporary perspective, Manuel.  From a very

long

    term perspective perhaps we can say that a species that somehow

translocated

    into another ecosystem may have initially disrupted that ecosystem but

after

    a few thousand generations the species and the ecosystem evolved

together to

    form a coherent and mutually productive stability. There is a hypothesis

    that Native Americans disrupted the American ecosystems resulting in the

    extinction of several large mammal species shortly after their arrival.

But

    after a few thousand generations it appears that they became a component

of

    the American ecosystems, sometimes managing certain ecosystem elements

to

    their benefit but certainly not disrupting and degrading these systems

to

    the extent that Euro-Americans did (and continue to do so).

 

    Taking your island fauna example, consider the Galapagos finches.

Charles

    Darwin concluded that there was probably a single invasion of a finch

    species eons ago, but these finches evolved into different species so as

to

    fill various ecological niches, resulting in a diverse and stable set of

    finch-inhabited ecosystems.  Certainly introduced rats could also

eventually

    evolve along with the ecosystems to become a stable component.  But in

the

    short term that ecosystem is going to be disrupted, and in the long term

    that ecosystem is going to be a somewhat different system.  We humans,

as

    "overseers" have the ability and duty to evaluate that current

disruption

    and that future potential.  There are those of us who say "let nature

take

    its course" and there are those who say "manage for human values" - I

say we

    should be following the axiom of Aldo Leopold: "A thing is right when it

    tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and beauty of the biotic

    community. It is wrong when it tends otherwise."  We need to evaluate

and

    manage invaders with that axiom as our beacon.

 

 

 

    Warren W. Aney

    Tigard, Oregon

 

 

 

     _____

 

    From: Manuel Spínola [mailto:[email protected]]

    Sent: Sunday, 11 September, 2011 04:54

    To: Warren W. Aney

 

    Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species

 

 

 

 

    Hi Warren,

 

 

 

    Take an island, you have "native" birds and later in time you have black

    rats that you consider invaders, but why those "native" birds are in the

    island, they needed to be invaders at some point in time.

 

 

 

    If Homo sapiens originated in Africa, from where the native Americans

are

    from?

 

 

 

    Best,

 

 

 

    Manuel

 

 

 

    2011/9/10 Warren W. Aney <[email protected]>

 

    There can be a meaningful ecological difference between an organism that

    evolved with an ecosystem and an organism that evolved outside of but

    spread, migrated or was otherwise introduced into that ecosystem.  An

    organism that evolved with an ecosystem is considered a component that

    characterizes that ecosystem.  An introduced organism that did not

evolve

    with that ecosystem should at least be evaluated for its potential

modifying

    effects on that ecosystem.

 

    Am I being too simplistic?

 

    Warren W. Aney

    Senior Wildlife Ecologist

    Tigard, OR

 

    -----Original Message-----

    From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news

    [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Manuel Spínola

    Sent: Saturday, 10 September, 2011 12:22

 

    To: [email protected]

    Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species

 

 

 

    With all due respect, are not we all invaders at some point in time?

 

    Best,

 

    Manuel Spínola

 

    2011/9/10 David L. McNeely <[email protected]>

 

 

      ---- Matt Chew <[email protected]> wrote:

 

      > We can compose effectively endless lists of cases where human agency

has

      > redistributed biota and thereby affected pre-existing populations,

      > ecological relationships and traditional or potential economic

      > opportunities.  Those are indisputable facts.

 

      The House Sparrow is in North America by human hand.

 

 

      > But what those facts mean is disputable.

 

      House sparrows are in serious decline in Europe, probably as an

unintended

      consequence due to human actions.

      >

      > I see effects; they see impacts.

      > I see change; they see damage.

 

      Many people see a need to eradicate non-natives.  At the same time,

many

      people see a need to preserve natives.

 

      With regard to the house sparrow ------ hmmm......... .

 

      Where does the "arms race" that Matt mentioned further along in his

post

      lead?

 

      mcneely

 

      >

 

 

 

 

 

    --

    *Manuel Spínola, Ph.D.*

    Instituto Internacional en Conservación y Manejo de Vida Silvestre

    Universidad Nacional

    Apartado 1350-3000

    Heredia

    COSTA RICA

    [email protected]

    [email protected]

    Teléfono: (506) 2277-3598

    Fax: (506) 2237-7036

 

    Personal website: Lobito de río

<https://sites.google.com/site/lobitoderio/>

    Institutional website: ICOMVIS <http://www.icomvis.una.ac.cr/>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    -- 

    Manuel Spínola, Ph.D.

    Instituto Internacional en Conservación y Manejo de Vida Silvestre

    Universidad Nacional

    Apartado 1350-3000

    Heredia

    COSTA RICA

    [email protected]

    [email protected]

    Teléfono: (506) 2277-3598

    Fax: (506) 2237-7036

    Personal website: Lobito de río

<https://sites.google.com/site/lobitoderio/>

 

    Institutional website: ICOMVIS <http://www.icomvis.una.ac.cr/>

 

 

 

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  -- 

  -- 

  ============================

  Charlie Hohn

  Recent Graduate

  Field Naturalist Program, Department of Plant Biology

  University of Vermont

  [email protected]

  slowwatermovement.blogspot.com

 

 

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