OK, I think we agree to disagree. Your experience is probably opposite to mine. I don't see any discussion in Slack to be indexed into search service but I can be corrected. If you meant by just relying on Slack search I don't agree the quality is the same with Google search (while I agree that you can leverage metadata e.g. channel, sender, etc.) and also it's totally vendor lock-in so ASF wouldn't be happy with it. (In case you think I'm just not experienced enough, I have worked as a remote worker with tz diff for more than 8 years and also I've been working on open source projects for more than 10 years.)
Agreeing to disagree is totally OK. We two are individuals and the direction would depend on whether the majority is buying whose experience. Btw, this is exactly the reason why I am asking where you feel difficulty in the existing system. Again, without the real world story the discussion will be just a loop. It's not modernized, yes, but I also don't hear the success story of 1k+ employees company entirely replacing email with Slack. Maybe a few could, but if it's superior I should have seen every company try to do this. My take is that they have their own usage. I'm not saying every discussion has to be in dev@. It's already happening - I don't think we ever do this. We propose a huge change with SPIP or DISCUSS which would never be coming from individuals. There tends to be a focus group internally to discuss and shape the discussion, but once it is done, I don't find any difficulty to proceed the discussion in the mailing list with a wider group. Have you seen KIP discussion in Kafka dev@? They have a lot more lengthy discussions and they handle them with a mailing list. My 2 cents of biggest concern on using instant messenger-like service - if you consider yourself to ping someone in Slack to get immediate attention, please do not ever think. Again, contribution to ASF projects is voluntary and they have their own daily job to live. Being easy to DM to someone, easy to mention someone, easy to "enforce" inviting someone to channel, etc. are all stressful - personally I just tolerate the stress as it's coming from our daily job. I don't think I'd like to do the same for voluntary work. On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 11:59 PM Nimrod Ofek <ofek.nim...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Personally, I never had problems searching within Slack, or if we will do > the archiving I suggest to do - the search will be the same. > I do not find the search to be good - and you can see that if you search > the same thing without mentioning the site - you won't find any of the > discussions nowhere in the first pages of Google search - which means that > one of the most valuable places for direct and trusted data - is not really > reachable to the people who are searching for it - unless they search > specifically within the mailing lists - which no done outside this mailing > list does. > > I do find myself not posting messages and not always expressing my > thoughts on some topics because using emails for exchanging ideas or having > a conversation - especially between many people - is very difficult to > follow. > > I think that moving discussions to Slack / Discourse or whatever platform > that provides a better threads management, better search capabilities, > maybe even tagging of people or keywords - will benefit the entire > community and will add more people to the community. > I don't find the timezones an issue - I work in a company with employees > from all around the world and we communicate a lot through Slack threads > and that's a non-issue. > > TBH I think that the searchability and publicity will probably be served > better with a solution such as Discourse, and I personally think that it's > worth to take it with the ASF infra team to see if that can be used as a > replacement to the dev/user groups - because I think that having > discussions in that manner will be much more public and visible to the > public, I believe that as a modern system and not just a mailing archive - > it will have better SEO and will be ranked higher in the search engines and > will lead to more people contributing to the project and participating. > > > > On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 5:36 PM Jungtaek Lim <kabhwan.opensou...@gmail.com> > wrote: > >> Again, I don't think we have outstanding discussions on the fly in dev@, >> so I would like to hear about "what led us to struggle about figuring out a >> new communication channel". Where did you find yourself to be not >> comfortable and what reason was it? I guess the discussion will be just a >> loop if we keep claiming without the actual example. >> >> For me, here is the example I find ASF mail archive to be very useful: Google >> search link >> <https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Alists.apache.org+discuss+spark+create+table&rlz=1C5GCEM_en&oq=site&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgAEEUYJxg7MggIABBFGCcYOzIGCAEQRRg7MggIAhBFGCcYOzIPCAMQRRg5GIMBGLEDGIAEMgYIBBBFGDwyBggFEEUYPDIGCAYQRRhBMgYIBxBFGEHSAQgxMjQzajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8> >> I >> could easily find the discussion initiated by me in 2020, 4 years ago. >> Also I'm really wondering if Slack would ever lead us to discuss >> something with lengthy detail which people may have to stay back and think >> about before replying. >> https://lists.apache.org/thread/3b1xot0hxftk3dlp6vy3kok63khoswm5 >> For me, whenever I was replying, I spent a non-trivial amount of time on >> understanding the new voices and forming the reply to be clear (to my >> best). It's uneasy to do the same in the Slack room/thread, at least for me. >> Interestingly, the discussion happened across multiple different time >> zones. It is pretty normal that TZ diff is more than 5 hours. >> >> I agree email is not suitable for instant chat. But technically speaking, >> community members are voluntary and they have their day-to-day work, so >> it's uneasy to ensure instant chat anyway. It does not block us from >> having a focus group to have internal discussion and come up with a design >> or some discussion topic or so, but the discussion/vote for a broader group >> should still have to happen in the mailing list. People shouldn't push >> community members to stay in Slack (or similar) to keep updated for the >> discussions, votes, etc. Checking inbox is a lot less overhead and a lot >> less stressful. Github issue might be giving similar UX, but not the >> services intended for instant chat. >> >> On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 10:58 PM Nimrod Ofek <ofek.nim...@gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I find Slack to be very easy for conversation - and even easier for more >>> serious conversations such as ones regarding SPIP etc. as the context is >>> much clearer and it's easier to follow different threads. >>> As for keeping historic records - as I stated, I really don't mind >>> creating a bot that will copy each of the messages and will post them for >>> historic records in the mailing list or whatever ASF wants... >>> Also - Discourse (that has a Slack integration by the way) or other >>> platforms can be used and all will be much easier to use and will encourage >>> more people to join the community. >>> >>> On Wed, Aug 14, 2024 at 4:41 PM Jungtaek Lim < >>> kabhwan.opensou...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> My 2 cents here: the service is not appropriate to replace user@ or >>>> dev@ entirely (even putting aside of ASF policy) if any of the >>>> functionality is not fulfilled >>>> >>>> 1. Infinite retention. >>>> >>>> See below. This is what the ASF mail archive serves now. You get the >>>> history from the incubator. >>>> https://lists.apache.org/list?dev@spark.apache.org:2013-06 >>>> >>>> 2. External Search >>>> >>>> ASF mail archive supports search but I don't think it's powerful. But, >>>> everything in user@ and dev@ is exposed to the public (via mail >>>> archive) and "indexed" to search engines. Have you tried "site: >>>> lists.apache.org SPIP" in Google? >>>> >>>> Any tool can be used to accelerate the faster communication, but >>>> serious discussions impacting the project direction (e.g. SPIP, core >>>> features, breaking changes, etc) and their VOTE threads, must be guarded by >>>> infinite retention and be exposed to public (and easier to find in anytime, >>>> even for future community member). >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Aug 12, 2024 at 7:46 PM Nimrod Ofek <ofek.nim...@gmail.com> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi all, >>>>> >>>>> Many other oss projects (some of which include some of the >>>>> participants of this mailing list I'm sure) are using Slack as a more >>>>> modern communication channel. >>>>> >>>>> I find Slack to be more appropriate these days, easier to navigate >>>>> through groups, easier to see context of different threads and also has a >>>>> built in mechanism for votes. >>>>> >>>>> I think that the only issue is that the free plan includes only 90 >>>>> days message retention- but I'm sure that one of the managers (Matei >>>>> maybe?) can negotiate different retention, we don't really need other >>>>> features but the retention is important- and I'm sure it's important for >>>>> other Databricks projects that are using Slack like Unity Catalog and >>>>> Delta. >>>>> >>>>> What do you think? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> Nimrod >>>>> >>>>
