On Jul 14, 2013, at 11:19 AM, Rob Weir wrote: > On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 1:32 PM, Marcus (OOo) <marcus.m...@wtnet.de> wrote: >> Am 07/14/2013 07:11 PM, schrieb Rob Weir: >> >>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 12:37 PM, Marcus (OOo)<marcus.m...@wtnet.de> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I tie up to Kay's suggestion to discuss a new policy. So, new topic, new >>>> thread. >>>> >>>> For reference here is the old policy: >>>> >>>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements >>>> >>>> My new suggestion: >>>> >>>> 1. Don't make a difference between UI and Help. >>>> >>>> 2. Accepted translations that are 90% or better. >>>> >>>> 3. *Except* we have a big or strategic new feature like the Sidebar. This >>>> should be translated much better than 90%. >>>> >>>> Why? >>>> >>>> 1. Do we want to make differences between UI and help translation? Do >>>> average users accept English help topics for translated UI functions? I >>>> don't think so. >>>> >>>> 2. In the previous OOo project translations were accepted with 80% or >>>> better >>>> for a release. IMHO this is too low to offer a high quality release. >>>> >>>> 3. New features that are also promoted in release note, blog post, etc. >>>> should be fully translated as the attention of our users is high here. >>>> They >>>> want to give it a try and shouldn't be disappointed with not translated >>>> parts. >>>> >>>> And now, add your points. >>>> >>> >>> >>> I'd prefer to keep the current rule, 100% UI translation. But I'd be >>> open to requiring 100% for help as well. IMHO we should be raising >>> the bar, not lowering it. >>> >>> If there is a community willing and able to translate to 90% then >>> there should be community willing and able to translate to 100%. >>> There is no technical or community reason to stop at 90%. It is only >>> a question of time. I'd prefer we just wait for 100% translation and >>> then release it. >> >> >> Sure, 90% was just my suggestion to raise the bar from 80%. But to stick >> with 100% is much easier as it's all or nothing. >> >> >>> On the other hand, if a language is stuck at 90% and there are no >>> active volunteers, then I don't think we should release it. If it >>> will not get to 100%, then we're just release something that will >>> reflect poorly on us and will slowly degenerate from release to >>> release. >> >> >> Yes, if the language is no longer supported actively then we shouldn't >> release it. >> >> >>> In other words, if it is merely a case of waiting another month or two >>> and then releasing a high-quality 100% translation, then I think that >>> is better than releasing something only partially done. >>> >>> Also, there is the "slippery slope" here. If we allow 90% complete >>> then someone will beg for 89% complete, or 88% complete. >> >> >> But then we have to be strict as 99% is also near to 100%. ;-) >> >> >>> What I would favor is making builds available, maybe at the level of >>> AOO 4.0, in all languages that are "close", maybe 80% or 90%. Not for >>> release or distribution, but to help volunteers evaluate its current >>> state and help translate. >> >> >> Good point, +1. >> >> Do you think about a L10N release somewhen between releases or as a RC where >> it's clear from the beginning that it will not be released? >> > > In this specific case, for AOO 4.0, I'm suggesting we release any > additional languages that are 100% on September 16th. This is similar > to what we did for AOO 3.4.1. After that date I think we then wait > for AOO 4.1.
I don't disagree with the policy of deadlines, but why September 16th? If some languages are ready sooner (like Traditional Chinese) it ought to be possible to have an earlier set. Perhaps we make it once a month? We also need to understand that there will be a certain length of time from a deadline to a language pack release. Is it one week? > You ask about an RC where it is not clear whether it will be released? > We may run into that issue if we have a beta for AOO 4.1. I don't > think all translations are complete for a beta. (Or are they?) If so > it is possible for a beta to include a language that never is included > in the final release. This would occur if the translators do not > finish the translation. This may sound cruel, but we can use this > for recruitment. When we publish the beta we can note that the > translation is not finished and that volunteers are welcome. I think that we should be careful to have a UI and Help freeze in advance of releases in order to give plenty of time for language teams to assure that they can meet our high standard of 100%. If we are going to co-ordinate many small teams then we need to establish schedules and try to commit to them. (As Jürgen has done for this RC.) Regards, Dave > > Regards, > > -Rob > >> >> Marcus >> >> >> >>>> Am 07/14/2013 05:43 PM, schrieb Kay Schenk: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 8:13 AM, Rob Weir<robw...@apache.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 3:42 AM, Juergen Schmidt<jogischm...@gmail.com> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am Sonntag, 14. Juli 2013 um 06:35 schrieb imacat: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 2013/07/13 20:52, Ariel Constenla-Haile said: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, Jul 13, 2013 at 12:20:32PM +0200, Marcus (OOo) wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Am 07/13/2013 05:14 AM, schrieb Ariel Constenla-Haile: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 11:54 PM, imacat< >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ima...@mail.imacat.idv.tw> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Sorry. I did not see Traditional Chinese version. Did I missed >>>>>>>>>>>> something on the Traditional Chinese version? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> UI translation is not complete: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/ >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I can see that 97% is translated. Not that bad. Do we have an >>>>>>>>>> agreement that we need 100% for a release? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://markmail.org/message/pxgvjuw2j3ukqsom >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Concerns should have been risen at that time, it was discussed on >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> mailing list, and properly tagged ("if it does not happen on the >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> mailing >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> list..."). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm asking because I really don't know it and in former OOo times >>>>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>>>> have done releases for languages with at least 80% translated UI >>>>>>>>>> [1]. So, maybe a change that I haven't seen in the last weeks. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> For this particular case, the translation of the main 4.0.0 feature >>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>> incomplete >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> https://translate.apache.org/zh_TW/aoo40/svx/source/sidebar/ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How serious would it be to release this translation in such a state? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> The >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> same applies to other languages released in 3.4.* but not in this >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 4.0.0 >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> RC. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hmm... I see the problem with side bar translation. And I'm very >>>>>>>> sorry that I was in my research paper and did not notice the previous >>>>>>>> discussion. However, there are several issues of concern: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 1. I am going to give a talk in our largest local open source >>>>>>>> conference (COSCUP 2013, http://coscup.org/) on 8/3, and plan to >>>>>>>> announce OpenOffice 4.0. It is the first talk after the key notes. It >>>>>>>> would be very embarrassing to announce it without a local version >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> released. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2. There would be a large-scale deployment around August or September >>>>>>>> (6000-7000) in a government department, and they are planning to join >>>>>>>> our development force in order to fix some Chinese problems in >>>>>>>> governmental use. If OpenOffice 4.0 Traditional Chinese version is >>>>>>>> not >>>>>>>> available at that time, we could only give them 3.4.1, which their >>>>>>>> development could not be based on. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I've asked our local community to help the translation in urgent. >>>>>>>> If we can finish the Traditional Chinese sidebar translation with >>>>>>>> certain amount, could it be OK to release it? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> let translate the UI First and then we can figure out what's possible. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hopefully some other languages can continue the translation as well and >>>>>> we >>>>>> can think about a language only release where I am a big fan of to >>>>>> support >>>>>> local communities. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> There is obviously some tension in our goals here: >>>>>> >>>>>> 1) We want to release the good work that is already done, so users who >>>>>> can enjoy the new features, bug fixes, interop improvements, etc. >>>>>> >>>>>> 2) We also have some languages that are "almost" done and don't want >>>>>> to "miss the train". >>>>>> >>>>>> IMHO the way to resolve this tension is to let the current 4.0 train >>>>>> leave the station, but announce another train is leaving soon. Maybe >>>>>> we can set a goal of September 16th for either a 4.0.1 (if we're >>>>>> making code changes for a new critical bug) or a language update of >>>>>> 4.0.0 (if there are only new translations). Hopefully we all remember >>>>>> that we did this with AOO 3.4.1 as well, adding more languages after >>>>>> we released. >>>>>> >>>>>> From what I can tell there is a steady stream of interest in >>>>>> translating AOO to other languages. There will always be another >>>>>> language that is "almost ready". That is what success looks like. We >>>>>> need to handle new translations when they are ready. We can't hold up >>>>>> the train, but we also can't make volunteers wait too long for the >>>>>> next train. >>>>>> >>>>>> So how does September 16th sound for releasing additional languages? >>>>>> Is that enough time? >>>>>> >>>>>> -Rob >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This seems quite reasonable to me. We need a little time for regrouping, >>>>> and dealing with perhaps some minor issues that might pop up from the >>>>> 4.0 >>>>> release. >>>>> >>>>> Re the old stated "policy" on : >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> http://wiki.openoffice.org/wiki/Release_criteria#Localization_requirements >>>>> >>>>> If this no longer our policy, we should definitely change this. >>>>> >>>>> But...I think we should first discuss the policy. What levels of >>>>> translation do we feel are acceptable if not at 100%. What do we >>>>> absolutely >>>>> require to be translated? Menus vs help files, for example. >>>>> >>>>> Once we determine translation thresholds, we should include the policy >>>>> on >>>>> the "Native Language" page on the project web site: >>>>> >>>>> http://openoffice.apache.org/native-lang.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> But in general we have discussed it and I would have not released >>>>>>> German >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> (my mother language) if the UI translation would have been not >>>>>> complete. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Just to make sure that we need active local communities who >>>>>>> participate >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> in the project or at least in the translation part. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It would be even better if the help would be translated as well but >>>>>>> that >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> is a much higher burden and we are more flexible here. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Juergen >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org >>>> >>> >>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org >>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Ciao >> >> Marcus >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org >> > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org
