On 25 April 2013 07:34, Jürgen Schmidt <jogischm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 4/24/13 11:34 PM, janI wrote: > > On 24 April 2013 22:33, Juergen Schmidt <jogischm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > >> Am Mittwoch, 24. April 2013 um 17:06 schrieb janI: > >>> On 24 April 2013 16:25, Jürgen Schmidt <jogischm...@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> > >>>> On 4/22/13 10:50 PM, janI wrote: > >>>>> On 22 April 2013 22:27, Jürgen Schmidt <jogischm...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On 4/22/13 10:18 PM, janI wrote: > >>>>>>> On 22 April 2013 20:54, Jürgen Schmidt <jogischm...@gmail.com> > >> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Hi, > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I am currently preparing po files for AOO 4.0 and will focus > >> on the > >>>>>>>> languages that we have already released. All other langs will > >> follow > >>>>>>>> immediately. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I have created 2 new projects on the "old" Pootle server to > >> get an > >>>>>>>> impression of how much work we have to do. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> What is the status of sidebar online help ? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> no update at the moment. Our xhp file format is not the most > >> intuitive > >>>>>> format and especially the unique id's are tricky. I will try to > >> figure > >>>>>> out how the help authoring tooling works and if we can use it. > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> I hope we agree that we cannot release the sidebar without online > >> help, > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> who > >>>>> ever makes it. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> mmh, I am not sure if nobody will work on it and if we won't have it > in > >>>> time it would be no show stopper to me. Online help is not so > critical, > >>>> it would be of course good to have it. > >>>> > >>>> If you think it would be a stopper you should provide or propose a > >>>> solution. > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Well you know I cannot provide a solution, at least not within the > >>> timeframe given. > >>> > >>> To me it would be a show stopper if the sidebar contains no help while > >> the > >>> old parts has help, or even worse non-translated help. > >>> > >>> Asking for a proposal is very fair. > >>> > >>> My top goal is to be consistent, so either: > >>> 1) someone from doc. or elsewhere works on online help for the > sidebar, I > >>> can with my limited knowledge help with the integration. > >>> 2) or we remove online help completly, stating it is being reworked. > >>> > >>> Our users are used to online help, and with a big new feature like the > >>> sidebar, for sure many of them will seek online help in the way they > are > >>> used to, and be confused why the old features have help and the new > >>> important one hasnt. > >>> > >>> To me this a very important issue: > >>> > >>> do we want to keep a dealine for the sake of the deadline and sacrife > our > >>> users, or do we want to release a "professional" product. In my mind > >> there > >>> are no doubt about the answer. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> we don't want to keep a deadline only for the sake of the deadline. We > >> should be simply realistic, if nobody works on it we won't get one and > it > >> makes no sense to postpone the release because of a missing online help > for > >> one feature. > >> We have released languages where the online help is not or only partial > >> localized. This was and is fine as well. > >>> > >>> But of course it is not my opinion alone that counts, so lets have a > >>> discussion...feel free to convince me why my point of view is wrong. > >>> > >>> > >> > >> I am simply realistic, if somebody steps forward and tell me that he/she > >> can provide a basic online help for the sidebar in 1 week I would > volunteer > >> to merge and update the po files ones more to include the help in the > >> translation process. If not I would move it to 4.1 because I believe > that > >> the online help is not so important . > >> > > > > Fair, I believe it is very important....if you have a new feature and > dont > > know how it works you go to the online help, like you do in all other > > parts. Of course if the product does not have online help at all, you > would > > also not expect it for a new feature. > > well I use integrated help rather seldom and search more often in the > web if I need help. > > But in general if such a new shining and visible feature like the > sidebar is not intuitive to use we have already made the first mistake > and that will no available online help change ;-) > > Thas is a nice killer argument...why do we provide help at all, when our system is so intuitive. maybe because we reach out, not only to skilled users as you and me :-) > > > > > To put a bit more direct, if you bought a new car, and there was no > manual > > explaining how the new fancy voice activated radio worked, would you be > > happy ? I would not. > > > > The 1 week is a selfmade deadline, that can be shifted as we like, we do > > not break a contract or anything if we postpone the release. > > > > We are planning more or less in 6 months cycles and I think this is a > good approach. I would of course like to see more new stuff and more > bugs fixed. But as always the work have to done. > > I would prefer a regular release cycle (more a train model) where we are > flexible but where we try to hold the deadlines. > > If we move the deadlines every time somebody thinks we need a further > fix, improvement, missing translation or whatever we ill have problems > to release something at all. > hmmmm. I agree on your train model for maintenance/minor releases, but this is a major release... you see big companies postponing major releases because they want to deliver a rounded off product. I strongly disagree, that releasing just because it said so in the calender, that is not a good idea.... where do we draw the line, we are on a sliding path here. Is it ok to release if a single button does not work, if a single panel does not work, or even if a major function is broken...I am not the one to set the limit, but we should define that very carefull. > > The deadline is known for some time and incompatible work should have > been done already. Everything else can be moved to a 4.1, 4.2 or when it > is ready. I don't see a problem, if a fix or feature can't make it for > the deadline, it will be integrated in the next. > > And in general we should create a plan what should be in next release or > where we want to put the focus for our next release. It's fine if > everybody makes what he/she want, especially regarding bug fixes. But > for bigger features or directions I would like to see a plan where we > can all agree and where we work together to achieve this plan. > > For example for a 4.1 I can imagine to focus on OOXML support as one key > feature. You can see as a motto for the release, a focus area ... > > > > WE should in general be very carefull about moving features from 4.0 to > > 4.1. 4.0 is a major release, where we can allow ourself (with good > reason) > > to be incompatible, whereas 4.1. is a maintenance release and a bit. I do > > not like the tendency at the moment to push everything difficult or > > unpleasant to 4.1, just to keep the 4.0 deadline. > > we should more careful the next time when we put something on this plan > that we can't achieve. I will for sure not put anything on the plan that > I can't provide in time. > > But nevertheless a plan is necessary that we can organize the missing > pieces in time. Coordinate development work with QA, documentation etc. > Of course a plan is needed, I totally agree with that...I just disagree with what happens if a feature does not meet the quality level I would expect. > > > > > But again, if the general opinion is, that is better to keep a selfmade > > deadline and release a half finished product, it would not be fair of me > to > > stand in the way. > > See above, I think we have to hold our deadlines to show confidence to > the outside. But we can of course improve our planning in the future. > > Or we should think about a real train model where we release every 3 or > 4 month. But where we maintain also a more stable branch where we fix > mainly bugs and potential security fixes. > > this would be a good idea for minor/maintenance releases but not for a major release. However, it seems I am the only one with this concern, so I will silence myself. You are the voted in release maneger (which I highly support) so according the apache way, it is your call together with a majority vote is a release is acceptable. rgds jan I. > > Juergen > > > > > jan I. > > > > Ps. I think the sidebar is a fantastic feature, and I also like the other > > features I have seen (and understood). > > > > > >> > >> Juergen > >>> > >>> rgds > >>> jan I > >>> > >>> > >>>> > >>>> Juergen > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> But for the future we need probably somthing new. > >>>>> > >>>>> yes, I used to use Qt help system, which are quite easy to maintain, > >> but > >>>>> this is only one of a couple of good candicates. The tricky thing is > >> that > >>>>> we problaly need to change all the keys in the src files...lots of > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> editing, > >>>>> but a nice job for a new volunteer. > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> For the UI in "de" will have to check/translate for example > >> 4986 > >>>>>>>> strings, I know we have string moved and translations should be > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> already > >>>>>>>> available but my knowledge of the language tools and/or > >> translation > >>>>>>>> memory is too lazy. any kind of help is appreciated ;-) > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I am traveling the next 2 days and have onyl limited time to > >> work on > >>>> it. > >>>>>>>> But I expect to have the po's ready at the end of the week > >> that we can > >>>>>>>> start with the work. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Please mail me, when you have synced the PO files on the old vm, > >> then I > >>>>>>> will copy them to the new vm. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> ok > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> I will keep you informed and please don't use the new AOO 4.0 > >> related > >>>>>>>> projects as long as I give the ok. We will potentially use the > >> new > >>>>>>>> Pootle server. > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The new server is in test....and awaits a principle discussion > >> between > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> AOO > >>>>>>> and Infra. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> what kind of discussion? > >>>>> > >>>>> Only committer login (infra version ) or local login and committer > >> login > >>>>> (aoo version rob/andrea) > >>>>> > >>>>> I have given andrea and infra a possible compromise. > >>>>> > >>>>> Did you not see my mail (private list) ? > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Juergen > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> rgds > >>>>>>> Jan I. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Juergen > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > >>>>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: > >> dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > >>>>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@openoffice.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@openoffice.apache.org > >
