Hi Colin, Thanks for the quick reply!
> If we cannot get KIP-853 done in time for 3.8, then we'd move to have another > 3.x release. This is the crux of my concern, and this is satisfactory. This means that the "must-haves" are advisory only, and don't constitute a binding feature list or a feature-based release. Thank you! >The intention behind saying the timeline was "rough" was to make the obvious >comment that if we shipped 3.7 in February rather than in January, it would >still be in the spirit of following the KIP. > I kind of regret putting that comment in there now, since apparently there > was a lot of misinterpretation! It didn't mean that the KIP itself was just a > suggestion and not binding, or that we hadn't come to a consensus about 3.7 > being the last release. I certainly did not get that sense from reading KIP-833 or the discussion thread after-the-fact. I was reading it using the contemporary interpretation you posted here: [1]. If I were voting on that KIP, I would not think that I was voting for 3.7 to be the last 3.x release. > To make this totally clear: > NO vote for this KIP ===> 3.7 is the last 3.x release, as per KIP-833. > YES vote for this KIP ===> 3.8 is the last 3.x release. This was not the precedent set by previous major version bump discussions. We need a mutual consensus to advance the major version, and lack of consensus means by default the next release will be a minor release. If KIP-833 actually changed this precedent, then I'll vote for this KIP just to restore the norm, as long as it is clear to everyone that after 3.8 the version will bump to 3.9 (and etc) unless another discussion reaches consensus about the project being ready for 4.0. [1] https://lists.apache.org/thread/k3bbz7k0hsb4y0b2xn1lh7bjrmjowmcq Thanks! Greg On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 2:20 PM Colin McCabe <cmcc...@apache.org> wrote: > > Hi Justine, > > If there are more things you think are needed in 3.8 for migration, let's > discuss in the VOTE thread. > > best, > Colin > > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2024, at 09:23, Justine Olshan wrote: > > While I agree we should have this release and should vote on it soon, is it > > worth determining the exact items we need before we vote? Just so we are > > all in agreement? > > There is still some discussion on the road to 4.0 thread that may be worth > > having here. > > > > On Fri, Jan 5, 2024 at 1:25 AM Josep Prat <josep.p...@aiven.io.invalid> > > wrote: > > > >> Hi Colin, > >> Sorry for being quiet these last days (PTO). > >> > >> I will start the vote thread right away. > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> > >> --- > >> Josep Prat > >> Open Source Engineering Director, aivenjosep.p...@aiven.io | > >> +491715557497 | aiven.io > >> Aiven Deutschland GmbH > >> Alexanderufer 3-7, 10117 Berlin > >> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen > >> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B > >> > >> On Fri, Jan 5, 2024, 00:24 Colin McCabe <cmcc...@apache.org> wrote: > >> > >> > Hi all, > >> > > >> > Since this has been open for a few weeks, are there any objections to > >> > starting the vote? What do you think, Josep? > >> > > >> > Since 3.8 is going to be the next release (according to the KIP) we > >> should > >> > really vote this in as soon as possible. > >> > > >> > Also, I created a wiki page about the 3.8 release with a tentative > >> > schedule. > >> > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/Release+Plan+3.8.0 > >> > > >> > Please let me know if these dates make sense -- they're just proposals > >> > right now. > >> > > >> > best, > >> > Colin > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Dec 28, 2023, at 20:14, Colin McCabe wrote: > >> > > On Thu, Dec 28, 2023, at 18:17, Justine Olshan wrote: > >> > >> Hey Colin, > >> > >> > >> > >> Some folks were concerned about the lack of automatic unclean leader > >> > >> election. I mentioned that KIP-966 would actually be better with its > >> > >> aggressive recovery option. > >> > >> I think folks were hoping for some availability over durability > >> solution > >> > >> for KRaft, so if we don't do KIP-966 we should provide an alternative > >> > or be > >> > >> able to convince ourselves it is not needed. > >> > > > >> > > Hi Justine, > >> > > > >> > > That's a fair point. We should specify in KIP-1012 that we need to have > >> > > some way to configure the system to automatically do unclean leader > >> > > election. If we run out of time implementing KIP-966, this could be > >> > > something quite simple, like honoring the static > >> > > unclean.leader.election = true configuration. > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> I think while many folks decided KIP-853 was a blocker, there were a > >> > lot of > >> > >> other features that many folks were expecting so I don't think we can > >> > say > >> > >> definitively the only must-have is KIP-853 (and hence the discussion > >> > thread > >> > >> here :) ) > >> > >> > >> > >> Also as an aside, I filed a ticket to remove ZK from the top of the > >> > >> quickstart guide. https://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/KAFKA-15975 > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > Yeah. There is a bunch of docs and quickstart cleanup that we should > >> > > do. I don't think any of it is a blocker for 3.8 or 4.0, but the new > >> > > year is a good time to clean things up. > >> > > > >> > > best, > >> > > Colin > >> > > > >> > > > >> > >> Justine > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 28, 2023 at 5:12 PM Colin McCabe <cmcc...@apache.org> > >> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> Hi Josep, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Thanks for the KIP. Based on the discussions we had previously, I > >> agree > >> > >>> that we need a 3.8. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> It would be good to link to KIP-833 in the motivation section, since > >> > this > >> > >>> KIP builds on that one. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Also, I think we should mention in KIP-1012 that 3.8 will be a > >> > >>> general-purpose release that may add some new features. This was > >> > something > >> > >>> that we were on the fence about previously, so it would be good to > >> > clarify > >> > >>> it here. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On another note. I don't think KIP-966 is a "must-have" for Kafka > >> 3.8, > >> > as > >> > >>> the KIP currently states. I certainly hope that it makes it for 3.8, > >> > but if > >> > >>> it doesn't, it can go into 4.0. It's not needed for migration, so it > >> > could > >> > >>> just as easily go into 4.0 as 3.8. The only thing that KIP-966 really > >> > needs > >> > >>> is "KIP-853: KRaft Controller Membership Changes." > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Along these lines, I think we should drop the language about > >> "strategic > >> > >>> feature parity with Zookeeper." Kafka isn't competing with ZooKeeper, > >> > and > >> > >>> doesn't need feature parity with it. For example, ZK implemented > >> > >>> Netty-TcNative OpenSSL Support, but we don't have that (and probably > >> > won't > >> > >>> in 3.8). We probably won't add this -- or if we do, it won't be so > >> > that we > >> > >>> can have "parity with ZK." Really the only must-have in 3.8 is > >> > KIP-853, and > >> > >>> we should be clear about that. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> I think we should start issuing a deprecation log message at ERROR > >> > level > >> > >>> when brokers start up in ZK mode. This message could point out that > >> > some > >> > >>> safety mechanisms and new features will not be available in ZK mode, > >> > and > >> > >>> give a link to our documentation about migration. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> We should probably also move the example configurations for kraft > >> from > >> > >>> config/kraft to config. And move the zk ones into config/zk. Or maybe > >> > even > >> > >>> drop the ZK ones altogether, since they're not needed for migration > >> or > >> > >>> upgrade. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> best, > >> > >>> Colin > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> On Fri, Dec 22, 2023, at 04:37, Josep Prat wrote: > >> > >>> > On this note, I'd like to add that I would volunteer to be the > >> > release > >> > >>> > manager of such release 3.8.0. > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > Best, > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > On Fri, Dec 22, 2023 at 1:31 PM Josep Prat <josep.p...@aiven.io> > >> > wrote: > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> >> Hi all! > >> > >>> >> As agreed on the "Road to Kafka 4.0" email thread, I created > >> > KIP-1012 to > >> > >>> >> discuss and I'd like to open it up for discussion: > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> > >> > > >> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/KAFKA/KIP-1012%3A+The+need+for+a+Kafka+3.8.x+release > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> Let's use this KIP to: > >> > >>> >> a) Leave a papertrail agreement for the need of a 3.8 version > >> > >>> >> b) Define which KIPs are the must-haves in regards to KRaft that > >> > should > >> > >>> be > >> > >>> >> included there. > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> Please let me know your feedback and suggestions. > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> Best, > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> -- > >> > >>> >> [image: Aiven] <https://www.aiven.io> > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> >> *Josep Prat* > >> > >>> >> Open Source Engineering Director, *Aiven* > >> > >>> >> josep.p...@aiven.io | +491715557497 > >> > >>> >> aiven.io <https://www.aiven.io> | > >> > >>> >> <https://www.facebook.com/aivencloud> > >> > >>> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/aiven/> < > >> > >>> https://twitter.com/aiven_io> > >> > >>> >> *Aiven Deutschland GmbH* > >> > >>> >> Alexanderufer 3-7, 10117 Berlin > >> > >>> >> Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen > >> > >>> >> Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B > >> > >>> >> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > -- > >> > >>> > [image: Aiven] <https://www.aiven.io> > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > *Josep Prat* > >> > >>> > Open Source Engineering Director, *Aiven* > >> > >>> > josep.p...@aiven.io | +491715557497 > >> > >>> > aiven.io <https://www.aiven.io> | < > >> > >>> https://www.facebook.com/aivencloud> > >> > >>> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/aiven/> < > >> > >>> https://twitter.com/aiven_io> > >> > >>> > *Aiven Deutschland GmbH* > >> > >>> > Alexanderufer 3-7, 10117 Berlin > >> > >>> > Geschäftsführer: Oskari Saarenmaa & Hannu Valtonen > >> > >>> > Amtsgericht Charlottenburg, HRB 209739 B > >> > >>> > >> > > >>
