Thanks everyone for the time and input. Kevin and I will just run this off our own YouTube channel as suggested. https://www.youtube.com/@IcebergMeetup
Ryan, appreciate the candor and I understand the nuance here. To fully button up this conversation, can you suggest if we should link the above channel and/or curate a playlist for the meetups in the official channel? - Jonathan On Thu, Jul 25, 2024 at 4:25 PM Ryan Blue <b...@databricks.com.invalid> wrote: > I definitely prefer not posting videos from an official channel unless > they are from some official event, for the same reason that I don't think > it is a good idea to publish blog posts. We don't want the PMC to become > moderators of what can or can't go there, even if it seems easy to make a > choice right now. And we don't want to take responsibility for whatever is > said in this channel. > > There are lots of things that could go wrong, even in this case and even > if people are trying to do the right thing. For instance, what if one of > the talks (not curated by the community) presents a benchmark favoring one > vendor over another? Do we want it to look like the community is promoting > it as credible? What if a vendor asks for it to be taken down? Do we want > to form an opinion about whether that benchmark is fair and accurate? > > I just think this opens us up to high tension situations that could > distract and slow down what we're working on. And there isn't a very clear > benefit to that risk. If this uses a separate youtube channel, what is the > downside? > > Ryan > > On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 2:07 PM Yufei Gu <flyrain...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> +1 for option 3, to publish meetup videos under the Apache Iceberg >> YouTube channel in a new playlist. >> >> We normally trust people to do the right thing. That's how the community >> thrives. But in case any video violates ASF trademark guidelines, we can >> still take it down as Jack suggested. >> >> Yufei >> >> >> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 12:07 PM Jack Ye <yezhao...@gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I was able to find the following 2 seemingly official channels (please >>> confirm if possible): >>> - Apache Beam: https://www.youtube.com/@ApacheBeamYT >>> - Apache Airflow: https://www.youtube.com/@ApacheAirflow >>> >>> Personally speaking I am fine either way. The 2 channels above have all >>> sorts of talks, meetup recordings out there, so I am not particularly >>> concerned about vendor endorsement. If there are contents that are clearly >>> vendor marketing material, people will probably flag that anyway and the >>> PMC can put it down. But on the other hand, I can also see where Ryan is >>> coming from given that vendor neutrality is a critical aspect of this >>> project and it's good that we think this through. >>> >>> I will leave this to people who have concerns, previous experience or >>> know more about the related ASF guidelines to comment here. >>> >>> -Jack >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 11:56 AM Jonathan Leang <leangjonat...@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Floating this up again since we haven't gotten any movement on the >>>> thread. I couldn't find anything like an "official" YouTube or other socal >>>> for other ASF projects so AFAIK we are doing something a bit different >>>> (which is super cool btw). >>>> >>>> From looking through the existing YouTube channel for Iceberg, there >>>> are three playlists: Iceberg Talks, Iceberg Tutorials, and Iceberg >>>> Community Syncs. Iceberg Community Syncs are just that. Iceberg Talks and >>>> Iceberg Tutorials seem like they are mostly from vendors. Iceberg Talks >>>> specifically has the description "Conferences, Meetups, and any talk >>>> happening in the Iceberg Community". >>>> >>>> The meetups we want to post have been run in such a way that they are >>>> vendor agnostic. We've even come up with guidelines for this >>>> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1y87k-8nCMczzORIcsePDu6CWTTO0h9qI67W_go8BmPA >>>> . >>>> >>>> There are a few ways I've thought of for us to post these talks: >>>> 1. We publish under a different YouTube channel and that's it >>>> 2. We publish under a different YouTube channel and the Apache Iceberg >>>> YouTube can curate a new playlist of the videos posted >>>> 3. We publish under the Apache Iceberg YouTube channel in a new playlist >>>> >>>> IMO #3 would be good so we can publish under the same roof and not have >>>> community-led videos fractured over multiple accounts. Ryan, Jack, or >>>> anyone else with some thoughts on this? >>>> >>>> - Jonathan >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 7:51 PM Jack Ye <yezhao...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Can people share what other projects do? And are there any related ASF >>>>> guidelines out there about this? >>>>> >>>>> -Jack >>>>> >>>>> -Jack >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024, 3:57 PM Ryan Blue <b...@databricks.com.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I didn't realize that the account was curating playlists. I'm trying >>>>>> to draw a parallel with the blog post example. Do we consider playlists >>>>>> links? I guess the question is whether it looks official. Would inclusion >>>>>> in a playlist be mistaken for an endorsement? Or would we get into >>>>>> unnecessary debates over what is appropriate for inclusion in a playlist? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 3:39 PM Jack Ye <yezhao...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Looking at https://www.youtube.com/@ApacheIceberg/playlists, there >>>>>>> are also many other talks and even tutorials, what about those? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -Jack >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 2:45 PM Brian Olsen <bitsondata...@gmail.com> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Update: I moved the video and playlist to a Private status until >>>>>>>> this is discussed. In the meantime, we'll wait to hear some guidance >>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>> the PMC and community to advise. Otherwise, I suggest that Jonathan and >>>>>>>> Kevin create an unofficial community Apache Iceberg Meetups channel >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> follows the trademark guidelines: >>>>>>>> https://apache.org/foundation/marks/ but have asked them to give >>>>>>>> some time to let others respond. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks all! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 4:41 PM Brian Olsen < >>>>>>>> bitsondata...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Hey Ryan, >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I will take that down, apologies for that confusion. I remember >>>>>>>>> having some discussion around this before and my recollection was >>>>>>>>> this was >>>>>>>>> more of a concern about vendor content but after I read your reply I >>>>>>>>> remembered this was a more general ASF sentiment. So with that, I >>>>>>>>> still >>>>>>>>> think distributing these through various channels would be valuable, >>>>>>>>> while >>>>>>>>> exposing them through playlists. For example, we added the Data >>>>>>>>> Council >>>>>>>>> talk you gave a while back where the video is hosted on Data Council's >>>>>>>>> channel, but we've added it to the "Iceberg Talks Playlist". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Perhaps this would be a matter of having the PMC create some >>>>>>>>> guidance on certain playlists like the meetups playlist I just >>>>>>>>> created and >>>>>>>>> then I can add videos from other channels that say Kevin and others >>>>>>>>> own to >>>>>>>>> upload Iceberg meetups and we can push visibility to certain videos >>>>>>>>> from >>>>>>>>> their channels that meet the criteria (like avoiding talks that are >>>>>>>>> pushing >>>>>>>>> a particular vendor or product for example). Would this align more >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> what you have in mind to avoid endorsements? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 3:59 PM Ryan Blue >>>>>>>>> <b...@databricks.com.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I strongly prefer not posting meetup videos on an official Apache >>>>>>>>>> Iceberg channel. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That's why we have up until now used the channel only for videos >>>>>>>>>> from sanctioned Iceberg events >>>>>>>>>> <https://www.youtube.com/@ApacheIceberg/videos>, like community >>>>>>>>>> syncs or the Apache Iceberg Summit. I wasn't aware that Bits posted >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> last Seattle meetup video. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> An "official" distribution channel like this (one controlled by >>>>>>>>>> the Iceberg PMC) needs to be careful about posting content because >>>>>>>>>> it can >>>>>>>>>> be seen as an endorsement and there are reasonable objections around >>>>>>>>>> posting some videos (for instance, they are strongly biased to a >>>>>>>>>> particular >>>>>>>>>> solution or vendor). I don't want the PMC to be in the business of >>>>>>>>>> deciding >>>>>>>>>> what gets to be on the official channel or not -- that's a whole set >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> arguments that I think we want to steer clear of. This is also the >>>>>>>>>> reason >>>>>>>>>> why the Iceberg site doesn't host blog posts, by the way. We >>>>>>>>>> originally had >>>>>>>>>> requests for people to post articles, but I don't think it is wise >>>>>>>>>> for the >>>>>>>>>> project to decide what opinions can be posted there. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I think that we should remove the last meetup video and only post >>>>>>>>>> content like the community sync videos. For everything else, I think >>>>>>>>>> it is >>>>>>>>>> a good idea to have a separate channel. We can link to those >>>>>>>>>> channels to >>>>>>>>>> make them easy to find, but we don't want to be in the middle when >>>>>>>>>> someone >>>>>>>>>> has an opinion about what should or should not be posted and should >>>>>>>>>> not be >>>>>>>>>> seen as endorsing any particular solutions. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ryan >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:44 PM Jack Ye <yezhao...@gmail.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> > posting/content management privileges to the Iceberg YouTube >>>>>>>>>>> channel for these meetup recordings >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> This sounds reasonable to me, when the meetup is recurring. So I >>>>>>>>>>> am good with doing this for the Seattle meetup series. We have >>>>>>>>>>> technically >>>>>>>>>>> already done so for Bits for the community sync meeting series. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -Jack >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 1:23 PM Jonathan Leang < >>>>>>>>>>> leangjonat...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Hey all, >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I have a question related to some questions about shared >>>>>>>>>>>> administration of Apache Iceberg social/marketing channels such as >>>>>>>>>>>> YouTube >>>>>>>>>>>> in this specific instance. Kevin Liu and I have organized the >>>>>>>>>>>> first Seattle >>>>>>>>>>>> Iceberg meetups and it looks like there will be a steady stream of >>>>>>>>>>>> technical talks about things like proposals and more generally >>>>>>>>>>>> recent >>>>>>>>>>>> developments in the project. Bits (Brian Olsen) helped us get the >>>>>>>>>>>> most >>>>>>>>>>>> recent meetup posted on the Apache Iceberg YouTube channel but >>>>>>>>>>>> we're hoping >>>>>>>>>>>> not to bother him every month. We're wondering if Kevin and/or I >>>>>>>>>>>> can get >>>>>>>>>>>> posting/content management privileges to the Iceberg YouTube >>>>>>>>>>>> channel for >>>>>>>>>>>> these meetup recordings. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> We asked Bits and he replied: >>>>>>>>>>>> It would be good to have some trusted people + PMC coordinate >>>>>>>>>>>> the social + marketing channels. In many projects I either see >>>>>>>>>>>> nobody >>>>>>>>>>>> really owning it and it becomes abandoned over time and other >>>>>>>>>>>> times I see >>>>>>>>>>>> it primarily run through one or two companies or individuals which >>>>>>>>>>>> doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>> scale. It would be great if a small group of trusted volunteers >>>>>>>>>>>> comanage >>>>>>>>>>>> these marketing channels with similar guidelines on how to >>>>>>>>>>>> coordinate when, >>>>>>>>>>>> channel "voice", and following standard ASF COC guidelines, etc... >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps Bits and/or a PMC member could take on the >>>>>>>>>>>> responsibility of building out the guidance on how to run this >>>>>>>>>>>> without too >>>>>>>>>>>> much overlap or interference as it scales out. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks! >>>>>>>>>>>> Jonathan Leang >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>> Ryan Blue >>>>>>>>>> Databricks >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Ryan Blue >>>>>> Databricks >>>>>> >>>>> > > -- > Ryan Blue > Databricks >
