I've been on bereavement leave for the past two weeks, hence the radio silence. I will be reading and replying to feedback this week.
On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 2:20 AM Roman Shaposhnik <ro...@shaposhnik.org> wrote: > On Thu, Jun 22, 2023 at 1:39 AM Phil Steitz <phil.ste...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 12:57 PM Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> wrote: > > > > > On 21/06/2023 19:57, Jeff Jirsa wrote: > > > > Member of the cassandra PMC, but responding here individually. I'm > not > > > actually sure I actually support the idea of an MVP program, but do > want to > > > point out that "PMC" has other special meaning: > > > > > > > > - A member of the PMC is (or at least was, and if it's changed, I > missed > > > it) strictly required to be a committer. We've had threads in the past > > > about whether or not there was room for flexibility, and structurally > the > > > answer was no. That's a problem because: > > > > > > > > - Committer requires signing an ICLA. That's a problem because: > > > > > > > > - Not all community members CAN sign an ICLA. Some are prevented from > > > doing so by employment restrictions or other legal requirements. So > even if > > > it were the case that SOMEONE might be the type of contributor who a > > > project WOULD make a member of the PMC, some individuals CAN NOT accept > > > that. > > > > > > Yes, that is an issue. It would be interesting to get some numbers on > > > how often that happens and whether there is anything the ASF can do to > > > help reduce the frequency - e.g. engagement with employers. Probably a > > > topic for a separate thread. > > > > > > Regardless, it is pretty much inevitable given the size of the ASF that > > > there will be some people that can't sign the ICLA and that is an issue > > > worth trying to address. > > > > > > Note: Projects can invite whoever they like to join their private list. > > > It would be unusual but I can't think of any reason a project couldn't > > > have honorary PMC members (or similar name), subscribed to the private > > > list and their voices listened to as if there were PMC members - the > > > only difference being they would not be listed in committee-info.txt > and > > > their votes would not be binding. > > > > > > > Beyond that: > > > > > > > > The PMC is permanent, irrevocable, and binding. > > > > > > Not quite. There are ways to remove bad actors from a PMC if necessary. > > > > > > > There are existence proofs of single bad actors on the PMC > effectively > > > blowing up projects (I will show them to you if needed, but PMC > members who > > > veto every single action and lead other contributors to fork). > > > > > > Been there. Got the t-shirt. Several times. And I hope I never have to > > > go there again. It is never pretty, always stressful and damages the > > > community. That it is rare is both good and bad. It is good it doesn't > > > happen often but the downside is there is relatively little experience > > > of dealing with it to draw on if you find yourself in that situation. > > > > > > > "This person is doing cool things to help the community THIS YEAR" is > > > not the same as "please be a driving force of the project forever". > > > > > > While there are bad actors, there represent a very small faction of the > > > community. I'd argue there is a greater risk of harm to the community > by > > > having high bars for committership and PMC membership and excluding > > > folks than there is by having low bars and accepting the risk of a bad > > > actor. > > > > > > > On a personal level, I started working with Cassandra to solve a > problem > > > at work, but I kept working on it because some company I had never > heard of > > > sent me an email and a t-shirt that said MVP on it. I was nowhere NEAR > the > > > level of contributions you'd need to be a committer, much less a > member of > > > the PMC (a conference talk and a couple emails, no code contributed at > > > all). It was a nice marketing gesture for the project, and probably > for the > > > company (maybe they assumed my employer would turn into a paying > customer, > > > which definitely wasnt going to happen). > > > > > > I think there is plenty of room for that sort of contributor > > > appreciation. Putting on my VP Brand hat for a minute, I have approved > > > companies producing project branded swag for exactly this purpose. The > > > main concern is making sure it is community swag rather than corporate > > > swag. > > > > > > > All of that said: it feels weird. I can argue about why it's good and > > > important. It still feels weird. Emotionally, I don't love the idea, > but we > > > also don't want affiliated companies running programs that may be > > > misconstrued as acting for the (trademarked) brand, and that's the > typical > > > place you'd see a program like this. Microsoft has MVPs. AWS has > community > > > heroes. Apache projects .... have merit within the project and within > the > > > foundation, but again, permanent, binding, and requires contracts. > > > > > > It looks as if there are a couple of different issues here (long term > > > contributors that can't sign the ICLA, wider contributor recognition as > > > a way to build community, maybeothers). I think there are solutions to > > > these issues that don't require creation of a parallel / alternative > > > system of recognizing merit.` > > > > > > My main concern with a parallel system of merit recognition is that it > > > think it will encourage higher bars for committership and PMC > membership > > > and that in turn is not good for the community. > > > > > > > I agree with that and I will add one more point. Nobody is more > "valuable" > > or important than anyone else at the ASF. The committer / PMC > designations > > are *can do* designations - they mean that the people having them *have > > agreed to serve the community and we trust them to do so* - not that they > > are more "valuable" than anybody else. When you get commit, you get to > > commit directly and you get to serve the community by reviewing and > merging > > patches by other contributors. When you are voted in to a PMC, you get > to > > review release candidates, vote on new committers / PMC members and deal > > with administrative and other issues in service to the community. Same > > applies when you become a member, a board member, officer of board chair. > > I strongly disagree with the idea of designating "MVPs" at any level in > the > > ASF. > > Huge +1 -- personally I also tend to find these types of programs to > be more divisive > than useful. Maybe this is an artifact of seeing how even PMC membership > gets > distorted (on popular projects) to be some kind of a "career > boosting/gatekeeping" thing, > but my gut tells me the MVP may end up moving the social dynamics in > the same direction. > That would be way too sad! > > Thanks, > Roman. > > P.S. I'd really rather not relive: > > https://research.gigaom.com/2011/10/07/hadoops-civil-war-does-it-matter-who-contributes-most/ > > https://web.archive.org/web/20120129151540/http://datameer.com/blog/uncategorized/whose-hadoop-is-bigger-really-2.html > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 2023/06/21 18:42:37 Mark Thomas wrote: > > > >> Melissa, > > > >> > > > >> You haven't answered my question. > > > >> > > > >> ASF projects already have a mechanism for rewarding contributions. > Why > > > >> do they need a separate one? > > > >> > > > >> Mark > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On 21/06/2023 19:12, Melissa Logan wrote: > > > >>> Hi Mark, > > > >>> > > > >>> The goal is to provide documentation to projects on how to > implement a > > > >>> community-run MVP program, should any project decide to do so. > > > >>> > > > >>> It would be optional and additive. > > > >>> > > > >>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2023 at 11:07 AM Mark Thomas <ma...@apache.org> > wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> Every project already has a system for recognizing contributors > in the > > > >>>> community - making them a committer (then PMC member). > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Why is there a need for a separate system? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Mark > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> On 21/06/2023 18:55, Melissa Logan wrote: > > > >>>>> Hello CommDev people: > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Is there precedent at ASF for a community-run MVP program? If > not, > > > would > > > >>>>> anyone like to collaborate on this to help provide guidance to > ASF > > > >>>>> projects? And is CommDev the right place? > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> In a recent Cassandra Marketing Working Group meeting (1) we > > > discussed > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>> idea of a community-hosted MVP program that adheres to ASF > > > governance. > > > >>>> MVP > > > >>>>> programs reward people who are actively contributing > to/promoting a > > > >>>> project > > > >>>>> by designating them as "MVPs" and listing them on community > channels > > > >>>> (e.g. > > > >>>>> project website). It's a great way to get people > onboarded/involved, > > > >>>>> recruit committers, and grow awareness for a project. This would > also > > > >>>>> create more opportunities for non-code contributions to a > project. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> MVP would be a non-governing body (2); one would need to > re-apply or > > > be > > > >>>>> nominated annually. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Each PMC would have to approve of the MVP program and be part of > the > > > MVP > > > >>>>> Committee to select MVPs each year. For the first year, the > committee > > > >>>>> would include at least one PMC member, 3-5 active contributors > that > > > will > > > >>>> be > > > >>>>> selected by the PMC member(s), and a program lead. In subsequent > > > years, > > > >>>> the > > > >>>>> committee would include PMC member(s), previous MVPs, and a > program > > > lead. > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> Doc below (3); feedback would be much appreciated. If you can't > > > access > > > >>>> it, > > > >>>>> let me know and I'll find another way to share. Thank you! > > > >>>>> > > > >>>>> (1) > > > >>>> > > > > https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/CASSANDRA/2023-06-07+Meeting > > > >>>>> (2) https://www-paulau.staged.apache.org/foundation/governance/ > > > >>>>> (3) > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/19sExbQFMBvEJPjE_YaZNZAp54I14Ez0sooybqm800qA/edit# > > > >>>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > >>>> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > >> For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > > > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > > > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > To unsubscribe, e-mail: dev-unsubscr...@community.apache.org > For additional commands, e-mail: dev-h...@community.apache.org > > -- Melissa Logan (she/her) Member, Apache Software Foundation CEO/Founder, Constantia.io
