On 11/15/2012 01:26 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: > On Nov 14, 2012, at 5:05 PM, Roger Leigh <rle...@codelibre.net> wrote: > >> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 03:04:35PM +0100, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: >>> On Wed, Nov 14, 2012 at 09:49:07PM +0800, Patrick Lauer wrote: >>>> But anyway, we're getting tired of their ADHD-driven changes just to >>>> change things >>> TBH, I'm getting tired of people who are constantly shooting against >>> them because these people are unwilling to accept changes. We're not >>> bringing Linux forward if we stick to 30-year-old concepts. systemd is a >>> good >>> design and most people actually agree otherwise it wouldn't become >>> standard on so many distributions (except Ubuntu, but that's rather a >>> political decision IMHO). >> systemd does have some good design features. It also has some bad >> ones. It's not as black and white as some people have claimed. >> >> If you want a reliable system, you need a reliable PID 1. Putting >> additional complexity into PID1 increases the likelihood that a >> bug will bring down your *entire system*. PID 1 is a single point >> of failure. It *must* be absolutely dependable and reliable. >> Upstart is also AFAIK at fault here. > Sticking to the same logic, we should pull out all functionality out of the > Linux kernel and use a micro kernel. > > Modern computer systems are much more versatile and complex than they were at > the time when System V Init was conceived. > > You need a certain complexity if you want a certain functionality. I don't > want to reboot my computer when changing my network connection, add or remove > new hardware like disks or input devices. And I don't want to mess around > with configuration files when I want to redirect the audio output of VLC from > the internal laptop speakers to an bluetooth or AirPlay. > > The reason why Linux has become so successful is because users don't have to > mess with tools like isaconf and pnpdump anymore to configure their > Soundblaster sound card or edit the interfaces or hosts file to change their > IP address. > > I honestly think that people who are fighting modern software like systemd, > pulse-audio or udev are simply fearing that their expertise in hacking > configuration files in order to get things working are no longer needed > anymore. They fear that the average joe can install and set up a Linux box > without their help. > > When I started using Linux in 1998, I would have never thought that I'd be > installing it onto my mother's laptop almost 15 years later as the sole > operating system and she'd be happily using it with nearly zero support from > my side. This would have never been possible without all these little modern > helpers that we have nowadays. > > If some advanced users want to stick to the traditional Unix way, they're > free to use distributions like Gentoo or use any of the BSDs. But I honestly > ask them to stop spreading FUD about how software like systemd or Pulse-Audio > is hurting Linux and free software, because Linux wouldn't be there where it > is nowadays without these developments. > > Adrian > Hi Adrian,
Roger talks about technical design and upstream author choices, with some I believe very valid points, and you're talking about features! This can't go anywhere. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50a3e07c.1020...@debian.org
